“It isn’t a matter of ‘if the next game has 50 characters, that’ll be enough.’ There is a certain charm to games that have huge casts of playable characters, but they tend to have issues with game balance and it becomes very difficult to fine-tune each character and have them all feel distinctive…. In terms of quantity, we’ve probably already reached the limit of what’s feasible. I think a change of direction may be what’s needed.” - Masahiro Sakurai
I think Sakurai is really going to change things up for this new Smash Bros.. That may ruffle quite a few feathers as we slowly find out what the franchise is going to do next. I'm both excited and nervous!
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I think Sakurai is really going to change things up for this new Smash Bros.. That may ruffle quite a few feathers as we slowly find out what the franchise is going to do next. I'm both excited and nervous!
Link
Categories: Top Stories, Consoles, Portables, Interviews | Tags: 3DS, Wii U, Smash Bros., Sakurai | Rating: 
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God why the hell do people still believe this?!
He's been in Donkey Konga, Mario Supper Sluggers, DK: KoS, and much more! Hell he even has a trophy in Brawl. I hate ignorant people who don't even bother to look a little beyond their skewed knowledge of the subject.
I don't care. I want new characters by the bucketloads.
There are still plenty of good Nintendo characters modern and classic that should be added.
If this new Smash Bros doesn't have many new characters... well they had better release DLC for the game reglarly.
As everyone who quoted you has stated, K. Rool isn't owned by Microsoft. By your logic, all of the kongs but Donkey Kong would also be owned by Microsoft if that was the case, but regardless K. Rool has been in the spin offs that were made after Microsoft bought Rare(like the people before me mentioned). Try to do some research before you make bold claims such as this one.
Disagreed! One thing I loved in Brawl was having Pikachu fighting Solid Snake. I would love a Mega Man and even a Tekken fighter or two. Why not? Don't see why people like you whine so much about these things...
And what about your hands and wrists? Are you hitting things when you loose o something? Just asking!
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........................no.
No to everything you just said. Sorry.
This is one game, that I don't like to change. I agree on the balancing a million characters though. I hope he just makes really good level editor and sharing system.
Noooooooooooooooooooo, don't change it up Sakurai! Just improve and add! Xd Scary~
ummm yes....no to everything you just said....sorry
but seriously....why not...the series is in need of something fresh....you cant just add more characters every time, make slight adjustments and call it a day. And now we have sony copying smash bros; sure they cant do it like nintendo can, but when others are providing a similar experience, you know its time to start thinking about switching it up a bit.
its time for nintendo to re-invent the wheel a bit.
both suggestions in general have smash bros inspired control layouts. which are simple yet provide depth for those looking for it. Im not saying have the games play exactly like those; at the end of the day its the specific mechanics that will make it feel and play like a real smashbros game.
what would you rather? melee 2.0? if so, just play melee.
regardless, you should prepare for something different as it wasnt even project sora who created the prototype nintendo is running with for this smash bros. Namco showed Sakurai a prototype and he decided to run with it; given that namco's fighting game experience is pretty much just with 3d games, could mean we're in for something that plays a little different than we're used to.
No. They should not try to reinvent the wheel with Smash Bros. It's very possible to expand on what they have in the next Smash Bros game without changing the game entirely. People play Smash Bros for mainly the core gameplay mechanic. It would kill the game (especially since it's a fighting game) if they changed how it works entirely.
Instead of telling people to "just play melee" if that's what they want, then I would suggest something similar to you. Play Card Wars Saga if that's what you want. If that's not what you want, replace that title with the fighting game you want Smash Bros to be more like.
The Smash is unique game! How much more does it have to change than all the other fighters that have remained excactly the same with each other for generations. It can be completely unchanged to still remain unique game. Its freakisly good game and needs to stay that way. Unless there is something yet invisible, but profound way to make it even better, changing Smash Bros is vain.
[/quote]
No. They should not try to reinvent the wheel with Smash Bros. It's very possible to expand on what they have in the next Smash Bros game without changing the game entirely. People play Smash Bros for mainly the core gameplay mechanic. It would kill the game (especially since it's a fighting game) if they changed how it works entirely.
Instead of telling people to "just play melee" if that's what they want, then I would suggest something similar to you. Play Card Wars Saga if that's what you want. If that's not what you want, replace that title with the fighting game you want Smash Bros to be more like.[/quote]
key word...expand...your not adding anything new...your just stacking more on more on the exact same formula. Look at what happened to Streetfighter x Tekken....they took an existing formula "streetfighter" and tried to add a bunch of mechanics in order to make it feel fresh; and it fell on its ass.
there is a point where trying to fit more on top of more is bad for the series. Ok yes people play smash bros for the gameplay mechanics, but lets not fool ourselves here and say its the main reason why people play. The main reason why people play is because all of nintendo's characters are in one game and duking it out with each other. lets be real.
huh...i dont understand the logic....so because its a fighting game...if they were to change the core mechanics in any way it would kill the game?....you do realize that the smash bros mechanics arent the only fighting mechanics that exist right.....changing them doesnt make smashbros any less of a fighter.
first off...im not saying change the way it plays entirely...i didnt say to re-invent the wheel....i said to re-invent the wheel A BIT
you can still have a new gameplay engine that retains many of the mechanics of the original smashbros. And again..when i say that smash bros should play a bit more like so and so game...i dont mean outright copy it....if you read my post you would know that i did say that its the individual mechanics that will ultimately make the game feel like a real smash bros game....what that means is that even if they changed direction a bit i would still want mechanics that are relevant to the smash bros series.
if i say i want the game to play something like card sagas....that doesnt mean i want it to have card elements....or if i say i want it to play like naruto ninja storm..that doesnt mean i want there to be teleporting all over the place...i mean on a very general level...i would want the games to move like so and so games...but to still feel like smash bros by implementing mechanics that make sense for the series.
well actually card sagas isnt out.....anyway..im not saying i want the game to play identical to card sagas or naruto....but i wanted them as a general guidline to gameplay....GENERAL...which is different than the melee 2.0 crowd, who literally want melee with new characters and online
listen i love smash bros too...but i personally am not seeing ways to build on the current gameplay while both making it more competitive and keeping it from feeling stale.
what are some of your ideas?....in your opinion..what does the series need to do for the next smash bros?
your first sentence says it all.....other fighters have remained the same for generations...do we really need smashbros to get into that habit as well?
smash bros is an awesome and unique game....but they definitely need to do something before it grows stale too...just cause its different than other fighters doesnt mean its exempted from becoming stale....especially now that sony is doing the exact same thing....its not going to be considered so unique anymore....the gameplay wont feel as fresh because now there are two titles competing within the same gameplay style.
just balancing and new characters isnt good for the series...cause then its guilty of the same thing all the other fighters are guilty of.....the whole idea of smash bros was that it was something fresh.....you cant stay fresh doing slight variations of the same thing every time
Smash is still very fresh and I cannot get bored to it, at least for one more generation. Possibly ever, but lets have one generation at a time. Because of its sound foundation of general gaming principles that naturally fit together, just getting new levels refreshes it in unprecedented fashion, and yet so miniscule addition as a new item could easily break it. Fortunately these are voluntary.
I'm not at all opposing an idea of getting, or making something better, but even though I usually see new fertile and profound ideas to make many things better, I cannot see how the Smash Bros would be profoundly better, and because Smash Bros's building blocks are basic building blocks of gaming, I'm afraid that changing its core would dilute it too much. I should know better, Sakurai is one of the most admirable game play artisans out there, but Smash Bros is the Sistine Chapel of game play, and you need to VERY careful even in just restoring it, let alone painting new frescoes into it.
Theres only so much, you can do with the basic building blocks. Strawberry ice cream is strawberry ice cream, and Base Ball is Base Ball. You can try to vary them a little, but you can easily break them by throwing a chocolate football, golf clubs and horses to the field. Its often better to seek variation from different flavours, than trying to change the strawberry it self. I want to find another as good berry as straw berry, but I fear that I'm not going to find many new berries to taste from the earth.
FPS games are the main games nowadays, and they too have been fundamentally the same for some time, only with slightly varying toppings, but the next bigger leap for the genre is waiting for virtual reality glasses; new controls. I'm very open for trying even the funkiest control methods, and I know that controllers are the main component of gaming consoles and the cornucopia of the gameplay, but because of its hasty nature and need for absolutely reactive controls, Smash Bros is fundamentally incredibly resistant for new, perhaps even finer, input methods. I guess there would be some slightly useful additions to game play to be found from motion controls, but in my experience they don't fit Smash Bros's basic game play. Perhaps something like alternative controlling method for Pits flying and arrows by tilting the controller. In cases like these the game could perhaps use bigger range of movement without sacrificing other vice reactive movement and fighting controls.
What do you suggest then? What am I missing?
Smash is still very fresh and I cannot get bored to it, at least for one more generation. Possibly ever, but lets have one generation at a time. Because of its sound foundation of general gaming principles that naturally fit together, just getting new levels refreshes it in unprecedented fashion, and yet so miniscule addition as a new item could easily break it. Fortunately these are voluntary.
i understand that many people love it. As do i. But this excuse is the same ones used by all purists. Doesnt matter which fighting game. Im sure the same people who love tekken will tell you the same about that series. But im sure tekken was definitely in your thoughts when you mentioned how other fighters stay the same for generations and how smash bros was more unique than them. Now i do agree with smash bros being more unique than them; but you cant condemn other fighters for never changing and then when it comes to your fighter not want anyone to change it at all. Thats hypocrisy.
now i love smash bros. i have had every smash game...i even got the project m hack...but its starting to grow stale for me....its not feeling as fresh as it once did
I'm not at all opposing an idea of getting, or making something better, but even though I usually see new fertile and profound ideas to make many things better, I cannot see how the Smash Bros would be profoundly better, and because Smash Bros's building blocks are basic building blocks of gaming, I'm afraid that changing its core would dilute it too much.
well just cause we dont see how they can make things better doesnt mean they cant be made better. And we'll never find out unless we let them try and make things better. Did Mario 64 dilute the series when it jumped from 2d gameplay to 3d? no. It set a new standard for not just mario games, but all games that followed.
im not saying changing smash bros will guarantee a change for the better or that it will set a new standard for fighters. It could be great for the series or worse. But had nintendo not attempted to change things up with mario, we never would have got mario 64...which in the opinion of many, is one of the greatest games of its time. Change can be good. And if it doesnt work; then they go back to where it was, no problem.
I should know better, Sakurai is one of the most admirable game play artisans out there, but Smash Bros is the Sistine Chapel of game play, and you need to VERY careful even in just restoring it, let alone painting new frescoes into it.
ok. all very nice; but nothing gets better by staying the same
Theres only so much, you can do with the basic building blocks. Strawberry ice cream is strawberry ice cream, and Base Ball is Base Ball. You can try to vary them a little, but you can easily break them by throwing a chocolate football, golf clubs and horses to the field. Its often better to seek variation from different flavours, than trying to change the strawberry it self. I want to find another as good berry as straw berry, but I fear that I'm not going to find many new berries to taste from the earth.
FPS games are the main games nowadays, and they too have been fundamentally the same for some time, only with slightly varying toppings, but the next bigger leap for the genre is waiting for virtual reality glasses; new controls.
yes FPS's sell amazingly these days. But that doesnt make them great games. In fact FPS's are often regarded as the problem with the industry these days. Why? cause its the same thing all the time. No innovation.
also, there are a ton of copycats. So the market is flooded with those titles.
Now we're already seeing Sony copy the smash bros formula. If sony's game sells well. What do you think is gonna happen? you think other companies arent going to hop on the bandwagon and try and use the smash bros formula for themselves?
I'm very open for trying even the funkiest control methods, and I know that controllers are the main component of gaming consoles and the cornucopia of the gameplay, but because of its hasty nature and need for absolutely reactive controls, Smash Bros is fundamentally incredibly resistant for new, perhaps even finer, input methods. I guess there would be some slightly useful additions to game play to be found from motion controls, but in my experience they don't fit Smash Bros's basic game play. Perhaps something like alternative controlling method for Pits flying and arrows by tilting the controller. In cases like these the game could perhaps use bigger range of movement without sacrificing other vice reactive movement and fighting controls.
i dont think we need to worry about motion controls or anything like that for smash bros.
What do you suggest then? What am I missing?
your not missing anything. What your describing very much fits what you want. Which is more of the same. You got an if it aint broke dont fix it type mentality towards this game and thats fine.
my whole point is that im all for nintendo striving to not only improve, but to bring something fresh.
as for things im looking for. I dont really have specific things im looking for. competitiveness would be one for sure.
But i think im ready for something new in the series. I want to feel the way i felt when i played smash bros 64 for the first time. It was new. it was fun. Smash bros has been an amazing series. But i havent had as much fun with melee or brawl the way i did with it on the n64. I want that feeling back. And more of the same isnt gonna bring it back for me.
How do I put this so it gets through? Here goes:
Because, personally, I want to play SMASH BROS. If I wanted to play something else, I'd PLAY something else. And quite frankly, the tried and true Smash Bros. formula has worked just fine so far, as the games have by far outsold any of the other games you mentioned, that you say SB should be "more like".
No thank you. At all. That's like saying "Man, Mario would be so much better if it played like Ratchet & Clank". No, it wouldn't. When people play a Mario game, they want to play a MARIO game. At least that's what I want. And that "Mario-ness" is what sells millions of copies, each installment. I don't want to play a Mario Kart game that tries to emulate Need for Speed. I don't want to play a Zelda game that gets "more mature" and tries to emulate God of War. And I certainly don't want to play a Smash Bros. game that doesn't FEEL like SB.
See what I'm saying? You don't have to radically change something to add a fresh element to it. And Smash Bros.' 2D platforming style of fighter gameplay is what makes it unique. The last thing I think most Smash fans want to see, myself included, is a 3D fighter that emulates Bleach or Naruto or whatever you said.
Perfect doesn't have to be changed. I'm saying, that I think that Smash Bros is a perfect game for the exception of minor tweaks... and level editor. Its not hypocrisy, and I'm usually not a "don't touch it" kind of person(not even now am I such person, as I said earlier). I feel, that everything needs to be moving, carefully of course, but trying to reach for the stars. Just the very few practically perfect things don't have to change, until they are surpassed by something, or that the makers are sure, that they have another, even more perfect diamond at hands. I believe, that the rest of the fighter genre...which is actually rather different genre, has a lot room for improvement, as well as many directions to go, such as Tekken and its armed variation(SC), but also a bit more realistic direction like Bushido Blade. But I don't see the direction, where Smash Bros could, or has to go. I welcome trying new ideas, only not for vanity's sake.
(Just to make sure, that I used FPS as an example because its so popular, that I would think that if there was a lot of new ground breaking ideas, its there)
I'd say, that the FPS's don't change much, because there's not much to change, and they don't have to change much before new controllers are available(Wii U has two interesting and fitting input methods, but these games are so expensive, that possibly very lone Wii U will not regularly get massively useful FPS applications for its controllers -> same challenges made for last gen controllers are too easy with Wiimote and most probably with uPad too). New interesting weapons arrive every now and then, some have time to hone the AI this (but might need to go back to artificial dummies in sequels(FEAR)) and physics that, but basically the FPS scheme is already done, you just try to figure out the context that you can differentiate with. There are places to go in FPS's, like openworld(the David Brabens nearly canned Outsider) and massive multiplayer, but their developement costs might keep the pace and ambitions down for the most part.
I have been saying for years, that Smash Bros is going to be copied, and I have marvelled, how its only now happening. It might be, that the others don't have so many mascots, and now that the Smash Bros has slowly raised the bar this high, making such a big platformer fighter game can be as expensive as it is crazy from a business stand point, But good that they are doing it. It might be the blueberry variation to straw berry ice cream.
Mario is a very different matter, and it also didn't have to choose between the directions as it went both ways at the same time. 3D world also had many obvious virtues for a Mario game. Same goes to Metroid. And these games have lots of places where they could go. Not everyone were very welcoming for the new stuff the latest Metroid, Other M, did, and many seemed to consider them as rather vain additions(but thats another very long discussion. I liked its new ways, but I only felt it was a little unfinnished).
That feeling is not coming back, until we get totally new game/genre. Its not going to change for a different game.
You insist on changing the Smash Bros. I welcomed the change, IF they can stumble on some yet invisible miracle that's going to make it even better, and I am sure that they always play around a bit with different concepts, but I hope that they don't change anything just because of change. Smash Bros doesn't need it. At least yet, if ever. We get most Nintendo games ONCE in a generation, so there's not coming back if it doesn't work. If it doesn't work, it IS a huge problem for the rest of the generation.
I asked, that what is it that you are insisting to change? It is already super competitive game and has been very well suited for tournaments for a long time. Better internet multiplayer is rather given of course. Perhaps refinements in physics engine. My biggest hope is a hand drawn levels, or at least tiles, that you can paint with stylus and resize and rotate how ever you like and share with friends or globally. Nothing big. I don't wish to touch to the basic concept of knocking people out of the level, the immediate animations and response for the controls and crazily tactical and surreal game play with lots of random stuff, while still being a very competitive and demanding game. Its a game that can make you laugh as well as rip your pants(finnish saying) the next minute.
Perfect doesn't have to be changed. I'm saying, that I think that Smash Bros is a perfect game for the exception of minor tweaks... and level editor. Its not hypocrisy, and I'm usually not a "don't touch it" kind of person(not even now am I such person, as I said earlier). I feel, that everything needs to be moving, carefully of course, but trying to reach for the stars. Just the very few practically perfect things don't have to change, until they are surpassed by something, or that the makers are sure, that they have another, even more perfect diamond at hands. I believe, that the rest of the fighter genre...which is actually rather different genre, has a lot room for improvement, as well as many directions to go, such as Tekken and its armed variation(SC), but also a bit more realistic direction like Bushido Blade. But I don't see the direction, where Smash Bros could, or has to go. I welcome trying new ideas, only not for vanity's sake.
perfect? thats your opinion. Its a great series. But far from perfect. Who says they dont have that new "even more perfect diamond" with this game? and as for not needing to be changed. Sakurai's own comments seem to suggest a change. Indicating that a change in direction is needed. You would think that the man who created the series would have some clue as to what he's talking about right?
(Just to make sure, that I used FPS as an example because its so popular, that I would think that if there was a lot of new ground breaking ideas, its there)
I'd say, that the FPS's don't change much, because there's not much to change, and they don't have to change much before new controllers are available(Wii U has two interesting and fitting input methods, but these games are so expensive, that possibly very lone Wii U will not regularly get massively useful FPS applications for its controllers -> same challenges made for last gen controllers are too easy with Wiimote and most probably with uPad too). New interesting weapons arrive every now and then, some have time to hone the AI this (but might need to go back to artificial dummies in sequels(FEAR)) and physics that, but basically the FPS scheme is already done, you just try to figure out the context that you can differentiate with. There are places to go in FPS's, like openworld(the David Brabens nearly canned Outsider) and massive multiplayer, but their developement costs might keep the pace and ambitions down for the most part.
again...who's to say there isnt much to change. Look at what metroid did for the genre. They were pretty much able to create the first real first person adventure game.
I have been saying for years, that Smash Bros is going to be copied, and I have marvelled, how its only now happening. It might be, that the others don't have so many mascots, and now that the Smash Bros has slowly raised the bar this high, making such a big platformer fighter game can be as expensive as it is crazy from a business stand point, But good that they are doing it. It might be the blueberry variation to straw berry ice cream.
well others have tried...but aside from ultimate jump stars and now sony all stars, none have really had any kind of quality behind them. Its seems that only now are others really figuring out the formula.
Mario is a very different matter, and it also didn't have to choose between the directions as it went both ways at the same time. 3D world also had many obvious virtues for a Mario game. Same goes to Metroid. And these games have lots of places where they could go. Not everyone were very welcoming for the new stuff the latest Metroid, Other M, did, and many seemed to consider them as rather vain additions(but thats another very long discussion. I liked its new ways, but I only felt it was a little unfinnished).
regardless if the direction was 3d or 2d or whatever. The point is a change was made. they could have easily ran with 2.5d not really changing anything if they had wanted. Actually from what i understand the only problem people had with the game was the portrayal of samus and not at all with the gameplay. Also, people were upset to find out metroid would go the route of an FPS in gameplay, fast forward to now and its a highly regarded series, even considered at its best when done as an FPS.
That feeling is not coming back, until we get totally new game/genre. Its not going to change for a different game.
You insist on changing the Smash Bros. I welcomed the change, IF they can stumble on some yet invisible miracle that's going to make it even better, and I am sure that they always play around a bit with different concepts, but I hope that they don't change anything just because of change. Smash Bros doesn't need it. At least yet, if ever. We get most Nintendo games ONCE in a generation, so there's not coming back if it doesn't work. If it doesn't work, it IS a huge problem for the rest of the generation.
if its invisible than its not a change. you dont welcome change, what you welcome is a slight modification of the same. If they change its because they cant move forward with current scheme of things. Which is exactly what Sakurai was saying. A new direction, how simply adding more content to what currently exists isnt going to be enough. If you had any respect for Sakurai, as you claim to, you would respect the possibility of change when the man himself suggests the series possibly needing it.
as for the feeling coming back...yeah ofcourse it wont if the game stays the exact same.....it doesnt feel fresh anymore...once they start changing things up it could feel that way again. And no i dont need a new game or genre...it could still be smash...because part of the awe of smashbros are the characters coming together....fresh and good gameplay with the worlds best characters would definitely bring that feeling back
I asked, that what is it that you are insisting to change? It is already super competitive game and has been very well suited for tournaments for a long time.
first off. its not super competitive. if it were there would not be tripping or mods in order to make it competitive.
and even melee, although "competitive" only a fraction of the cast were worth using on a competitive level. Basically fox and shiek for the most part. I'd hardly call that well suited for tournaments.
Better internet multiplayer is rather given of course. Perhaps refinements in physics engine. My biggest hope is a hand drawn levels, or at least tiles, that you can paint with stylus and resize and rotate how ever you like and share with friends or globally. Nothing big. I don't wish to touch to the basic concept of knocking people out of the level, the immediate animations and response for the controls and crazily tactical and surreal game play with lots of random stuff, while still being a very competitive and demanding game. Its a game that can make you laugh as well as rip your pants(finnish saying) the next minute.
well that is basically the same thing with a few added gimicks is all you want out of the next one.
although i dont have a clear idea as to what changes will take this game to the next level...i will go into things they should at least explore.
- deeper combo system...i dont mean the way its done in other games with stringing along multiple button inputs..nothing like that....but something that allows for more intricate combo system.
- in relation to my last point...something that heavily minimizes the knock back that increases at higher percentages....maybe they exclude the effect of knockbacks for all normal attacks...and now the knockback is only apparent when performing a smash attack or specials....and now adding air smash attacks to allow people to knock opponents out of the air as well. so basically...normal attacks and tilt attacks are not affected by the percentage...therefore allowing combos to be possible at all percentages without anyone popping out of them. This would also cause for more intentional kills overall and less accidental ones...you would really have to set them up now.
- i'd also like them to explore normal ko's...as in someone takes too much damage and dies....so that there are multiple ways to die and not just a ring knockout.
- supers without a smash ball....i want to see you able to build super and not get it as an item.
- multiple supers can be done at once.....if im playing someone...if i see someone doing a super....and i know mine can beat theirs out...i should be able to do mine too if i have built it up
- optional 6 characters on screen...mainly so we can do 3 on 3 online team matches...not a big deal at all..just a fun thought
- if they decide with 3d...i would want it to manuever somewhat like Naruto ninja storm. Basically this would breath lots of life into the characters. They would be able to move around as they actually would in a 3d world....for example mario dodging attacks with sideways hops.....maybe even triple jumping around....they would be able to move around exactly the way they do in their actual games...which cant exactly be replicated fully with 2d gameplay.
- this would also open things up for a whole new combo system....something that allows for more tactical approaches...with 3d there is more mobiilty....and therefore more options for approaches.
- team matches would be far more methodical due to the fact that you would need to pick who your looking at in a 4 player "arena" based fighter....which means more control over team tactics and combos.
- and you could still have hugely interactive stages...just look at god of war ascension multiplayer
So what you're really saying is..........basically............that you want to play a Smash Bros. game that's, fundamentally, not Smash Bros. Gotcha.
How do I put this so it gets through? Here goes:
Because, personally, I want to play [b]SMASH BROS. If I wanted to play something else, I'd PLAY something else. And quite frankly, the tried and true Smash Bros. formula has worked just fine so far, as the games have by far outsold any of the other games you mentioned, that you say SB should be "more like". [/b]
you really think that it outsells anything i've mentioned simply because of how it plays? lets be real; the main reason it sells so well is because of its cast. Now with that said. Yes..awesome gameplay mechanics..but it isnt the main reason why the sales are as high as they are.
No thank you. At all. That's like saying "Man, Mario would be so much better if it played like Ratchet & Clank". No, it wouldn't. When people play a Mario game, they want to play a MARIO game. At least that's what I want. And that "Mario-ness" is what sells millions of copies, each installment. I don't want to play a Mario Kart game that tries to emulate Need for Speed. I don't want to play a Zelda game that gets "more mature" and tries to emulate God of War. And I certainly don't want to play a Smash Bros. game that doesn't FEEL like SB.
by your logic mario 64 should have never played the way it did because it did not play like the original mario games...by your logic zelda 64 should not have played the way it did because the previous ones didnt.
so are the current mario games not real mario games...because they are different than the nes ones?....still the same genre...still have all the relevant mechanics dont they?...and thats why it keeps its mario charm....same with its other franchises.
just cause something started in some manner..doesnt mean it should be held to it forever...nothing ever improves if it doesnt accept changes. And the games i listed are a reference. im not saying outright copy them. I always said that it should have smash bros relevant mechanics...so that it...i dont know....feels like a smash bros game maybe?!?!?!?
See what I'm saying? You don't have to radically change something to add a fresh element to it. And Smash Bros.' 2D platforming style of fighter gameplay is what makes it unique. The last thing I think most Smash fans want to see, myself included, is a 3D fighter that emulates Bleach or Naruto or whatever you said.
no you dont have to completely change something to add a fresh element to it...but adding elements to an already established based is nothing but minor changes at the end of the day. You cant keep something fresh by just adding a new element to it and calling it a day. Well as nintendo once said (paraphrase); fans dont know what they want till its presented to them.
you think fans wanted an fps metroid game?...you think if people were asked how a nintendo fighting game should be before smash bros was released that their ideas would reflect what smash bros came to be.....highly unlikely
fact is, you wont see better till you actually see it. And if all you ask for is the same damn thing with minor tweaks and more characters, than you'll never come across a better experience if such a an experience exists. And again...sakurai's own statement is in line with my general message....more of the same....quantity..doesnt equal quality...and that rather than just add characters...he would rather take the series in a different direction.
the series is in jeopardy of becoming stale...if you really cared for the series...you would want it to at least attempt to become something better than what it is.
lol..ignorance
not at all...i didnt take any of the current mechanics out in my suggestions....i just adjusted some and added others...the heart of smash bros would still be there as none of the suggestions i made took anything from it
and i only mention 3d gameplay because that is what namco excels at...and considering they made the prototype sakurai decided to run with...there is a chance it could be 3d gameplay
and nobody is changing what the smash bros series is about....nintendo characters thrown into a battle royal against each other.
I may in fact be okay with this.
I only said, that I for once don't see the direction, where Smash Bros could, or has to go and I consider it as a perfect game until I see the YET invisible profound improvement, thats existense I'm currently doubting. I always welcome trying new ideas, only not for vanity's sake. Not change for the change. Only change for the better. Some games need change for refreshment, Smash is still fresh game.
Again, Metroid and Mario are different matters. I had zero doubts about Metroids and Marios adventures in 3D world, but that another very long topic.
"again...who's to say there isnt much to change. Look at what metroid did for the genre. They were pretty much able to create the first real first person adventure game."
I. What do you suggest? The genre has matured very far, and are now turned to slow gear in their evolution, pushed back with the financial limits. Next big steps are coming with controllers.
" The point is a change was made."
My point was, that the change was needed in those cases.
And 2D Marios could still use some changes, but thats another topic and a very long off topic discussion.
"if its invisible than its not a change"
I was talking about the issue of change just because of change. I usually easily see how many recipes and formulas can be enhanced, but here the profound improvements are invisible. I'm glad if they find something, but I don't want them to change the formula just to make changes into something that is still very unique game.
"you dont welcome change, what you welcome is a slight modification of the same. "
I have said many times, that I welcome change if it makes the game better, otherwise I want this one exception to be restored with utmost care.
"If you had any respect for Sakurai, as you claim to, you would respect the possibility of change when the man himself suggests the series possibly needing it."
Who are you talking to? I said, that I respect the possibility of the change.
"first off. its not super competitive. if it were there would not be tripping or mods in order to make it competitive.
and even melee, although "competitive" only a fraction of the cast were worth using on a competitive level. Basically fox and shiek for the most part. I'd hardly call that well suited for tournaments."
First off. Its super competitive and still very rare combination of extreme fun and extreme competitiveness. There's nothing that makes it any less competitive game than anything in the world, well for the exception of the tripping, but its still trivial and doesn't change my percentage of wins. Still bloody competitive game and has many tools for arranging competitions. And the games nature is so competitive, that I have seen the fighting continue in real world more than in any other game. I wish, that Sakurai could monitor the competitiveness of the game after the launch and make refinements in characters balance with patches if needed.
"well that is basically the same thing with a few added gimicks is all you want out of the next one.
although i dont have a clear idea as to what changes will take this game to the next level...i will go into things they should at least explore.
- deeper combo system...i dont mean the way its done in other games with stringing along multiple button inputs..nothing like that....but something that allows for more intricate combo system."
Combo system is more gimmick than level editor and Smash Bros is in greater need of levels, than combo system.
"- supers without a smash ball....i want to see you able to build super and not get it as an item.
"
This!!! And this could be the combosystem. Perhaps in combination with players health/percentage; the meter fills faster with higher percent.
"- multiple supers can be done at once.....if im playing someone...if i see someone doing a super....and i know mine can beat theirs out...i should be able to do mine too if i have built it up"
Theres fantastic buttonmasher opportunity; a test of strength in a Metal Black style, where the players would have to respond to the super attack with a super attack and see which one is more powerfull and they could be boosted with button mashing. Stronger super power would push through of the weaker, but at least the weaker would eat some of the damage. In team matches two or three players weaker mega blasts could keep one Death Star away with frantic, sweaty button mashing.
3D would be VERY profound change, it would be another game; Kid Icarus Uprising. It could be very good, it could be as good, and I would love to see it happening too, but I'm not sure if I want to go there without having 2D Smash too. But yeah, it would carry more players. Because of Kid Icarus Uprising, I don't think that the depth(3D) is very improbable new direction.
I only said, that I for once don't see the direction, where Smash Bros could, or has to go and I consider it as a perfect game until I see the YET invisible profound improvement, thats existense I'm currently doubting. I always welcome trying new ideas, only not for vanity's sake. Not change for the change. Only change for the better. Some games need change for refreshment, Smash is still fresh game.
who says any of the changes sakurai is hinting at or any of the changes im saying the series needs is simply for vanity. I never said i want something to just look fresh. i want it to play fresh because i personally feel like if the series doesnt make changes, its going to get stale.
the fact that you keep mentioning that the improvements you want need to be invisible. As in you cant notice them or see them; just means you arent open to change and new ideas. To say that changes are ok so long as you dont notice them is basically to say that you just want slight tweaks of what currently exists. Even if you doubt the existence of a better way to play smash, doesnt mean it doesnt exist.
like i said earlier, you think anyone liked the idea of FPS metroid before they actually saw it in motion? NO...people hated the idea until they saw it in action; now it defines the series. This is not about just 3d or change for the sake of change. you mentioned earlier that for some games 3d was the natural progression for games like mario and metroid. But in metroid's case, although 3d was a natural progression, fps wasnt considered to be. Everyone imagined that game to play as a 3rd person adventure. No one imagined it would turn out as great as it did as a First person game.
and thats something that should be thought about in regards to smash. jUST cause you dont see how changing things up a bit is good for the series. doesnt mean changing things up wouldnt be good for the series.
Again, Metroid and Mario are different matters. I had zero doubts about Metroids and Marios adventures in 3D world, but that another very long topic.
agreed. but like i said about metroid. Many would have thought that its natural progression would have been into 3rd person adventure. Its what everyone was expecting and wanted. And many were pretty upset at the thought of it being a fps format game.
basically what im saying is that nintendo took that game in a direction nobody wanted it to go in...and the series is now better for it. If that can happen in metroid, who's to say it cant with smash.
I. What do you suggest? The genre has matured very far, and are now turned to slow gear in their evolution, pushed back with the financial limits. Next big steps are coming with controllers.
are you seriously trying to tell me that based on the series past, you expected its first 3d game to be an FPS. get real. Everyone wanted it to be a 3rd person adventure game. and people were legitimately bothered by the news of it being an FPS until they actually played it.
and when metroid prime first came out, the FPS genre wasnt what it is today. it wasnt a matured genre. it was still very early in its maturation.
My point was, that the change was needed in those cases.
And 2D Marios could still use some changes, but thats another topic and a very long off topic discussion.
and change isnt needed here? not even when the creator is saying that the series needs to be taken in a different direction?
and again...my whole point is that even thought you dont think it needs changes..doesnt mean it doesnt or couldnt benefit from changes. Just like my metroid fps example. Nobody wanted it in that format. and now it defines the series.....its not about 2d or 3d...its about a change period..and the execution of that change...nintendo did not have to make metroid an FPS.....especially cause nobody wanted it to be or expected it to be...but they did it anyway...and now its the definitive metroid experience.
I was talking about the issue of change just because of change. I usually easily see how many recipes and formulas can be enhanced, but here the profound improvements are invisible. I'm glad if they find something, but I don't want them to change the formula just to make changes into something that is still very unique game.
nobody is suggesting to make changes just for changes sake. im suggesting it; and sakurai is hinting at it; because it may be NEEDED.
And changes dont automatically equal it being a less uniqe game. Thats dependent on the changes made. And considering smash bros exist to be the anti streetfighter. Taking out most of the execution barriers players have with other fighting games. It is pretty much never going to not be a unique experience. Part of the point of smash bros is to be different than the rest.
since when are the most profound improvements invisible?
I have said many times, that I welcome change if it makes the game better, otherwise I want this one exception to be restored with utmost care.
yeah but just about every time you say it, you add in that the change must be invisible. That to me, sounds like any changes must go unnoticed to you.
Who are you talking to? I said, that I respect the possibility of the change.
again...you've always thrown in that it needed to be invisible change.
First off. Its super competitive and still very rare combination of extreme fun and extreme competitiveness. There's nothing that makes it any less competitive game than anything in the world, well for the exception of the tripping, but its still trivial and doesn't change my percentage of wins. Still bloody competitive game and has many tools for arranging competitions. And the games nature is so competitive, that I have seen the fighting continue in real world more than in any other game. I wish, that Sakurai could monitor the competitiveness of the game after the launch and make refinements in characters balance with patches if needed.
i actually agree with everything you've said right now in regards to competitiveness....but im a strong advocator for balance...and when you have a very small fraction of the cast who can compete at the highest level...and when the rest of the 80 percent cant compete...i cant call it completely competitive...but i understand thats just my own personal outlook...but i do agree...there is a very high level of competitive play attainable in smash bros...but i tend to ignore it because most of the cast usually cant perform at that high level.
Combo system is more gimmick than level editor and Smash Bros is in greater need of levels, than combo system.
whaaaaaa?!? lol.....i wouldnt say that...simply because a combo system would be something inherent to the actual gameplay....it affect how the game plays...where as a level editor is bonus...its a cool feature or mode...but not the heart of the game.
actually i would want both lol....brawl's level creator was cool....but it could have been better..why not let us use parts of the actual stages in there too....like the platforms from one stage...and maybe a castle from another stage as part of the stage..or if i just want to throw it in the background could do that too
This!!! And this could be the combosystem. Perhaps in combination with players health/percentage; the meter fills faster with higher percent.
that would be cool..and it would also play into the general philosophy of smash bros...like a way to even the odds regardless of skill levels....even streetfighter 4 has a similar mechanism...where taking more damage fills your ultra meter.
"- multiple supers can be done at once.....if im playing someone...if i see someone doing a super....and i know mine can beat theirs out...i should be able to do mine too if i have built it up"
Theres fantastic buttonmasher opportunity; a test of strength in a Metal Black style, where the players would have to respond to the super attack with a super attack and see which one is more powerfull and they could be boosted with button mashing. Stronger super power would push through of the weaker, but at least the weaker would eat some of the damage. In team matches two or three players weaker mega blasts could keep one Death Star away with frantic, sweaty button mashing.
3D would be VERY profound change, it would be another game; Kid Icarus Uprising. It could be very good, it could be as good, and I would love to see it happening too, but I'm not sure if I want to go there without having 2D Smash too. But yeah, it would carry more players. Because of Kid Icarus Uprising, I don't think that the depth(3D) is very improbable new direction.[/quote]
i like the idea of button mashing for supers...my only concern is that if it turns into a test your might thing...if it will cause too much of an interruption for the regular play....like...i dont think i would want it to play out like it does in the dragon ball or naruto games.....where it goes into some sequence....if it can be done seamlessly...then im all for that
yeah..and i agree with you.....like...even though im on here pushing for changes...and saying that im even open to them turning it in a 3d game...that doesnt mean that i want 2d smash to go away....like the idea pains me...but ultimately if it meant one or the other...i would want them to take the chance and try it out....ever since the gamecube days i've thought about smash bros in a 3d style.....it would be nice to just see how that would be...and if it flops...maybe it could be the first opportunity for nintendo to do more than one smash in a generation.
so yeah...i know how you feel...i love 2d smash too...but i dont want that love to keep us all from experiencing the possibility of something really awesome just because its different.
You don't even seem to want to understand what I am saying.
Now lets make it short this time, and read carefully:
I am open to new ideas
I don't want to change things if it doesn't make something better
I don't see another (2)Smash like game(s) coming to Wii U
I don't see, how Smash could be profoundly better
I want to see a miracle, that would make something that I consider practically perfect even better
the miracle is currently not visible, but if it was found, and put to the game, it would obviously be a revelation, and then it would be visible.
I know, that people were generally afraid of change of perspective in Metroid and Marios cases, and I have stated that numerous times in discussions related to Metroids and Marios. I personally had no shadow of a doubt that those games will greatly benefit from 3D. But thats not very much related to this discussion.
"and thats something that should be thought about in regards to smash. jUST cause you dont see how changing things up a bit is good for the series. doesnt mean changing things up wouldnt be good for the series. "
And if I don't see it, I can express my worries, this is a discussion after all. I have explained my arguments, You are arguing against my opinion, but don't seem to want to explain your arguments, when I ask you how would you carry out this profound change for the game. We seem to be arguing about semantics and color of tone. I was talking about profound changes for the whole time, and I was never against small improvements all over the place.
agreed. but like i said about metroid. Many would have thought that its natural progression would have been into 3rd person adventure. Its what everyone was expecting and wanted. And many were pretty upset at the thought of it being a fps format game.
basically what im saying is that nintendo took that game in a direction nobody wanted it to go in...and the series is now better for it. If that can happen in metroid, who's to say it cant with smash.
This happens all the time. Nintendo manages to surprise me more often, than what I dared to even dream...am I becoming cynical. I still know my sh!t, and I can often see improvements and changes ahead of time. I don't consider profound changes making Smash Bros impossible. I just stated, that its pretty close as good as I can dream of right now(which mean, it can go beyond my wildest dreams. I just don't see it. It means I love it that much and I welcome the even better Smash Bros, better than what I currently consider practically perfect, with open arms...and readied body. My body is also almost literally ready for just regular mundane, but still unique Smash Bros with new toppings and better level editor)
"and change isnt needed here? not even when the creator is saying that the series needs to be taken in a different direction?
and again...my whole point is that even thought you dont think it needs changes..doesnt mean it doesnt or couldnt benefit from changes. Just like my metroid fps example. Nobody wanted it in that format. and now it defines the series.....its not about 2d or 3d...its about a change period..and the execution of that change...nintendo did not have to make metroid an FPS.....especially cause nobody wanted it to be or expected it to be...but they did it anyway...and now its the definitive metroid experience."
Thats what I am saying. No changes for the DNA of the Smash Bros, IF they are not sure its going to be better.
Metroid is cut into two or three slices, several different game, jsut like Mario. I fear that the same won't happen to Smash Bros. If it doesn't work, my favorite game is ruined, and I can talk about it. If some one don't like 3D Metroid, and not every one likes 3D Metroids, they still have 2D Metroids. I like both, and even Other M, so I'm very pleased for what happened for Metroid, I always was.
"nobody is suggesting to make changes just for changes sake."
You are, and you don't seem to want to open it up by saying how the change is going to be done, and what good is it for. You demand change, but don't provide an explanation for that argument.
"whaaaaaa?!? lol.....i wouldnt say that...simply because a combo system would be something inherent to the actual gameplay....it affect how the game plays...where as a level editor is bonus...its a cool feature or mode...but not the heart of the game.
actually i would want both lol....brawl's level creator was cool....but it could have been better..why not let us use parts of the actual stages in there too....like the platforms from one stage...and maybe a castle from another stage as part of the stage..or if i just want to throw it in the background could do that too
"
I know, the controls are the heart of the game, but I don't see Smash Bros getting much out of combo system...unless, it was connected for example into harvesting that itemless Super Power idea of yours...and balancing it just right, like usually getting ca. 1 full super power(perhaps like a super power tank, that could build up and be used gradually) per level in normal conditions, it could make it pretty intensive...dare I say, almost something I would call profound. The button mashing idea would also need very careful balancing, but it would make Master Higgins very happy.
And yeah, the level editor was surprisingly versatile, even if it was simple. But the inability to make own blocks and play them in online games was pretty frustrating. I wish we could draw our levels with stylus, and make out own blocks, and at the very least stretch and rotate the pieces.
"yeah..and i agree with you.....like...even though im on here pushing for changes...and saying that im even open to them turning it in a 3d game...that doesnt mean that i want 2d smash to go away....like the idea pains me...but ultimately if it meant one or the other...i would want them to take the chance and try it out....ever since the gamecube days i've thought about smash bros in a 3d style.....it would be nice to just see how that would be...and if it flops...maybe it could be the first opportunity for nintendo to do more than one smash in a generation."
hmmm...Sakurai said, he's going to make 2 Smash Brosses...Perhaps one of them could be something completely different and the other would continue where the Brawl left...
You don't even seem to want to understand what I am saying.
no i have been understanding what you've been saying...its just that what you've been saying has slowly evolved as the conversation goes on. Your initial posts were very much about not touching a thing on the gameplay front and simply preserving it. And now its evolved to being fine with change so long as it makes the game better. which is all i want as well.
I am open to new ideas
good. as am i.
I don't want to change things if it doesn't make something better
nobody is asking for there to be change for changes sake...and i would only want things to change for the better as well
I don't see another Smash like game coming to Wii U
probably not. but it would not be impossible; especially if they went in a radically different direction with the upcoming one...if it strayed far enough....they could justify a new one....highly unlikely...but the opportunity for one that brings it back to its roots would be there should they choose to do so. Basically...they can always go back to how things were. Wont be the end of the world.
I don't see, how Smash could be profoundly better
thats fine. neither do i. but at least im willing to admit that just cause i dont see how. doesnt mean its not possible. And care enough for the series for them to actually try and make it better.
I want to see a miracle, that would make something that I consider practically perfect even better
the miracle is currently not visible, but if it was found, and put to the game, it would obviously be a revelation, and the it would be visible.
exactly...but in order for that to happen. They have got to be allowed to try and create that. It doesnt mean anything to say that you want to see a miracle and have them improve on perfection. then make statements like you dont want them to change anything.
you cant have both.
I know, that people were generally afraid of change of perspective in Metroid and Marios cases, and I have stated that numerous times in discussions related to Metroids and Marios. I personally had no shadow of a doubt that those games will greatly benefit from 3D. But thats not very much related to this discussion.
im not arguing against that. i agree with that. but im talking about metroid as a FPS specifically. Metroid was expected to be a 3rd person adventure because it would have been its natural progression. Considering how the other games played; nobody wanted it to be an FPS. But nintendo went with it and it turned out for the better.
had nintendo asked the fans prior to starting that game how they wanted metroid to be....it never would have been an FPS type game. Basically, not even the truest of fans always know whats best for the series at all times. Nobody knew how much the game would benefit from the FPS format. The same can apply here. not You, nor i, may be aware of how new mechanics/gameplay for this game would benefit it more than its current state. But if developers arent trusted to try, they will never find it.
And if I don't see it, I can express my worries, this is a discussion after all. I have explained my arguments, You are arguing against my opinion, but don't seem to want to explain your arguments, when I ask you how would you carry out this profound change for the game. We seem to be arguing about semantics and color of tone. I was talking about profound changes for the whole time, and I was never against small improvements all over the place.
wow really? ok..you wanna talk about reasoning? when yours is basically comprised of "its the perfect game...i dont see how it can get better.....(insert talk about stawberries and ice cream or whatever the hell you were talking about before). If you wanna call out any reasoning i have, call yours out first. Your reasoning has been little more than a stubborn proclamation that you dont want things to change and that if they were to, you'd want them to be invisible.
i've never claimed to have the answers. just that doing the same old thing leads to a stale series; which smash bros deserves better than to grow stale like the other fighters
i've said many times that i dont know what the profound changes would be. That just like you, i dont see what they would be. With that said, i dont have to. Im not a game designer to be able to tell you what mechanics will guarantee profound change for the better. That is for minds more creative than mine to conjure up.
what i can tell you is that i've played the series since it first came out. And i personally am starting to feel like the game is getting stale.
but for the sake of conversation; lets just say my big profound change is moving the game into 3d gameplay (as it is the biggest change you could possibly make for the series)
Reasons:
- 3d movement gives more options in terms of how you approach enemies.
- 3d movements give a more accurate representation of what the characters would actually move like and would draw heavily from their perspective series. For example ganondorf has wizard like abilities; these arent represented in the smash bros series. In 3d they could have him maneuver a bit like he did as the final boss of ocarina of time.
- it also resets things for a lot of characters. With a fresh new start into 3d, characters moves can be reimagined. No more clones.
- many 3d games feature ring outs as well as regular ko's...so there would be no reason to not allow the series to keep that element of the series. ofcourse it wouldnt work like in other fighters, it would have to be adapted to feel like it does in smash bros...and would probably be a lot riskier now to get out there and chase an opponent off the stage in order to finish them
- it could very up the combos on the floor...and if added with my previous general suggestions for smash bros...with only smash and special attacks being able to send the opponents flying off the stage when the percentages go up...adding air smash attacks......basically it could preserve the general feel of smash bros...but also allow a completely different and fresh perspective on the mechanics
- this could make the supers seem more epic...and would definitely make the battles seem more epic especially when playing back recorded matches..having full roaming camera to follow the 3d action around.
This happens all the time. Nintendo manages to surprise me more often, than what I dared to even dream...am I becoming cynical. I still know my sh!t, and I can often see improvements and changes ahead of time. I don't consider profound changes making Smash Bros impossible. I just stated, that its pretty close as good as I can dream of right now(which mean, it can go beyond my wildest dreams. I just don't see it. It means I love it that much and I welcome the even better Smash Bros, better than what I currently consider practically perfect, with open arms...and readied body. My body is also almost literally ready for just regular mundane, but still unique Smash Bros with new toppings and better level editor)
thats fair. And im ok with that point of view. The only reason this conversation has lasted this long is not because of a difference of opinion..if you like it the way it is then fine....but there are some who act like the series should never progress or change at all. And just like you; if there is something that can make the series better, I want nintendo to explore it
but lets be honest..your initial stance was not one of open arms
Thats what I am saying. No changes for the DNA of the Smash Bros, IF they are not sure its going to be better.
well why else would i or anybody want a change? for the worse? I just dont want nintendo to get comfortable and just give fans the same over and over again. I want them to continue to experiment to bring something new and fresh that will make the series better; and when they have it, i want them to release it.
i've never wanted them to change just for the sake of it being different. i want it to move forward.
Metroid is cut into two or three slices, several different game, jsut like Mario. I fear that the same won't happen to Smash Bros. If it doesn't work, my favorite game is ruined, and I can talk about it. If some one don't like 3D Metroid, and not every one likes 3D Metroids, they still have 2D Metroids. I like both, and even Other M, so I'm very pleased for what happened for Metroid, I always was.
thats a valid fear....but nothing gained without trying to strive for better
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