Sonic: Lost World

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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby led-naruto » 30 May 2013 15:46

Oh now I remember, you do need to ride a certain vehicle to pass some hazards in the later stages.

Some of them aren't really good, like the motorcycles (although they're cool) or the cars, but some others really help a lot to destroy everything.
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby Hamr » 30 May 2013 17:38

MoldyClay wrote:I wrote more, but to avoid sounding long winded and defensive, my point was his writing off other characters based solely on the few times they did them wrong and ignoring the times they did them right or acceptable.


Obviously, we have differing definitions of the word 'Few'. :-P

90% of the time, the friends are just copies of Sonic, or another character.


I disagree with the premise that having clone characters is doing friends 'right'. If they are mechanically identical to Sonic in gameplay, then their existence is functionally pointless, since you could just have Sonic or whoever do that gameplay regardless. Adding a new character that does the same thing serves no purpose beyond expanding the already-wretched story and encouraging recycling the same levels with only minor variation. I mean, we can debate how enjoyable we find playing through total/near-total carbon copies of stages over and over and over again, but that experience is going to be repetitive in the most objective possible sense.

"The problem was when they tried differentiating them too much, which honestly only happened in Sonic 06 and Sonic Adventure 2."

And Adventure. And Heroes. And Unleashed. Also, it seems a bit bizarre to me to discount the game where you play the entire campaign as one of Sonic's friends from a discussion on Sega's general inability to do friends correctly.

"Flying characters suck in Heroes, but that's only 4 out of 12."

Agree with the first half of that sentence; disagree with the second.

A. Power Characters are easily the worst formation in Heroes, since their segments are all combat-oriented 'kill every enemy to advance', and 3D Sonic has never gotten combat right. Heroes's awkward combat in particular is basically the definition of blind button-mashing in order to progress, and the enemies all take way too many hits to defeat, unless you chose to spend even more time in the Power Formation leveling up its attack. Personally, I would take even the godawful Gamma/Tails/Robotnik lock-on-laser gameplay over that sort of thing.

B. Even if Speed were the only formation available, playing four identical Sonic clones would still be awful, unnecessary design, since the levels wind up being cloned too. Every 'Team' in Heroes winds up playing through the same twenty-ish levels, with the same layouts, fighting literally the exact same bosses (some of which are further recycled within the campaigns themselves) at the same points, watching nearly identical cutscenes. All of this in literally the exact same order, four times over.

"Also, I excluded Werehog and the multiple versions of Sonic because, we're talking about friends, not Sonic himself."

I am fine with excluding most of the Sonic-centric gameplay gimmicks (which is why they are parenthetical to my point) but the Werehog is for all intents and purposes a separate character that embodies everything bad about having multiple playable characters and how their inclusion can cripple the rest of the game.

"You just play Shadow, and you CAN play without using the vehicles (I don't remember if you can avoid guns)."

It is possible to avoid guns (provided you are not interested in beating the full game), but because there *are* guns, and the developers went through the trouble of coding them, the rest of the game is designed around using them -- so defeating a giant enemy robot by throwing a hedgehog at it takes about as long to accomplish as it would in real life.

"But I enjoyed picking crap up and throwing it"

Right, but people 'enjoy' lots of things. For instance, a number of people might enjoy S&M -- that does not mean it would be a particularly good feature to build a Sonic game around.

Game development is an interconnected, zero-sum thing. Any gameplay mechanic you put into a game is going to impact the rest of its design. You put in gravity manipulation, you have to build a moveset that works with it. You have to code a physics engine and that is capable of handling that, the actual jumping mechanics, and how objects interact -- same for the collision detection, damage properties. You have to come up with segments built around gravity manipulation, like those awful puzzles and bosses. You have to ensure levels have constantly respawning stuff so that you do not run out of ammo to throw. You have to expend time and money developing and testing these things, and your hardware has to expend processing power running them, and that is going comes at the expense of other aspects of the game.

Put in vehicle gameplay on top of that sort of thing, and you have just exponentially increased the amount of types of interactions every object is going to have with every other object in the level, as well as the level itself, and you wind up with, say, a non-zero random chance of those vehicles exploding at the smallest touch.

"I honestly only want other characters for the purpose of looking at someone other than Sonic."

If it is just cosmetics you are concerned with, then that is less an issue of designing new playable characters than it is in wanting additional switchable game skins. Most people would probably not be averse to that specifically, provided the skins were 100% optional and characters they belong to given no speaking roles.

For instance, I have no issues with Sega selling DLC to play through levels like this.


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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby Einar1025 » 31 May 2013 01:58

I wish I could play Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Blaze. Those are the best 4 characters in the series.
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby KingBroly » 31 May 2013 02:36

Einar1025 wrote:I wish I could play Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Blaze. Those are the best 4 characters in the series.


Then you're going to be disappointed.


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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby TheLastBlade » 31 May 2013 05:59

KingBroly wrote:
Einar1025 wrote:I wish I could play Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Blaze. Those are the best 4 characters in the series.


Then you're going to be disappointed.


Sonic Only.


Oh man, that sucks... Not being able to control clone characters.
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby SyntheticPerson » 31 May 2013 06:48

I don't mind not being able to play other characters. In past games, they kind of spoilt the fluidity of the game for me. Even Tails and Knuckles in the Sega games weren't great. Not bad, but no substitute for playing as Sonic.
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby Einar1025 » 31 May 2013 10:41

KingBroly wrote:
Einar1025 wrote:I wish I could play Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Blaze. Those are the best 4 characters in the series.


Then you're going to be disappointed.


Sonic Only.


You say that like I wasn't aware. :p I know Sonic is the only playable character. Thats ok, it is what it is.

Ideally though, I would like those 4 to be playable. They are similar yet different enough from Sonic himself they could have unique gameplay options.
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby MoldyClay » 01 Jun 2013 06:15

Hamr wrote:Obviously, we have differing definitions of the word 'Few'. :-P


If we're being literal (few = 3) then yes, I am wrong. But if we're using Adventure, Adventure 2, Heroes, Sonic 06 and maybe another game, that's still out of almost 30 platformers, ~18 of which have characters playable that aren't Sonic.

I disagree with the premise that having clone characters is doing friends 'right'. If they are mechanically identical to Sonic in gameplay, then their existence is functionally pointless, since you could just have Sonic or whoever do that gameplay regardless. Adding a new character that does the same thing serves no purpose beyond expanding the already-wretched story and encouraging recycling the same levels with only minor variation. I mean, we can debate how enjoyable we find playing through total/near-total carbon copies of stages over and over and over again, but that experience is going to be repetitive in the most objective possible sense.


I don't remember Sonic flying, gliding or having a hammer. Normally, anyway. Was Sonic 3 & Knuckles not doing it right? Or any of the Advance games? And when I was mentioning having everyone be clones, I am saying I'd want them as like skins. Not new campaigns with added story. Purely an aesthetic thing. Preferably, I'd want Tails and Knuckles to have their respective abilities, but I would not object to being able to unlock, like, Espio or Shadow as just a skin or something.

And Adventure. And Heroes. And Unleashed. Also, it seems a bit bizarre to me to discount the game where you play the entire campaign as one of Sonic's friends from a discussion on Sega's general inability to do friends correctly.


You keep mentioning Unleashed. I haven't played it, but if I am not mistaken, don't you ONLY play Sonic? Werehog Sonic is STILL Sonic, so I do not count that because the whole side-discussion was about Sonic's friends. Not his transformations.

And I discount Shadow because that's not what we were talking about. Shadow is a bad game, but it has nothing to do with having Sonic's friends mess up a game where you play Sonic. The argument was based on playing other characters in a game *in addition* to Sonic, because they are 'incomplete' and don't play as well as he does. Shadow the Hedgehog does not fall into that, because it's not a game where you play Sonic, and you don't play multiple characters. Shadow being terrible in his own game is an example of SEGA botching a campaign where you don't even HAVE other characters. That's an entirely different beast. You're right in saying that it's handling a friend wrong, but it's *not* what we were talking about.

The reason this is even being discussed is because of wanting to play Sonic's friends in Lost World. People like The Last Blade don't want that because of other Sonic games where they were half-assed compared to Sonic levels. Shadow is not the same situation. That's just a friend being used badly on their own.

Agree with the first half of that sentence; disagree with the second.

A. Power Characters are easily the worst formation in Heroes, since their segments are all combat-oriented 'kill every enemy to advance', and 3D Sonic has never gotten combat right. Heroes's awkward combat in particular is basically the definition of blind button-mashing in order to progress, and the enemies all take way too many hits to defeat, unless you chose to spend even more time in the Power Formation leveling up its attack. Personally, I would take even the godawful Gamma/Tails/Robotnik lock-on-laser gameplay over that sort of thing.

B. Even if Speed were the only formation available, playing four identical Sonic clones would still be awful, unnecessary design, since the levels wind up being cloned too. Every 'Team' in Heroes winds up playing through the same twenty-ish levels, with the same layouts, fighting literally the exact same bosses (some of which are further recycled within the campaigns themselves) at the same points, watching nearly identical cutscenes. All of this in literally the exact same order, four times over.


Gonna be honest, I played the Power characters as Speed characters, which is probably why I don't see the problem with them. And I don't really remember there being that many actual segments where you needed them. I remember it mostly being to break blocks. Been a while, though. I have intended to replay recently though.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but I was positive you just had to collect red orbs to level up Power, not actually be Power. Or did you have to switch and get them to power them up? I forgot that was even a thing. Regardless, I usually had all of them full. :\

As for having 4 identical campaigns, I don't see how that's much different from playing Sonic 2 as Sonic or Tails. And to a lesser extent, Sonic 3/K as Sonic, Tails or Knuckles. There were minor differences (I think Knuckles had more than Tails, especially in the S&K levels) but for the most part it was basically just playing the same game 3 times.

I know it's not the way it's supposed to be, but I treated it as if they were 'unlockable characters'. I've enjoyed playing many games repeatedly just with a new model. Though, to be fair, most of the time they *were* unlockable, so it made more sense.

I am fine with excluding most of the Sonic-centric gameplay gimmicks (which is why they are parenthetical to my point) but the Werehog is for all intents and purposes a separate character that embodies everything bad about having multiple playable characters and how their inclusion can cripple the rest of the game.


Gonna have to agree to disagree here. I know it's a completely different playing style, but it's still Sonic. What it does isn't so much embodying what's wrong with multiple characters as it embodies what was wrong with the Sonic Adventure style of gameplay and level design. Sonic games could easily have more playable characters work under different settings. They're not meant to be in open 3D worlds, though.

Right, but people 'enjoy' lots of things. For instance, a number of people might enjoy S&M -- that does not mean it would be a particularly good feature to build a Sonic game around.

[game design]


Well, I never said I wanted them to make a Silver game. Or that Sonic 06 was coded well, or a technical masterpiece.

A problem with Sonic 06 having so many characters was that they shared all the same levels, but interacted differently with them. They should have just had their own levels (and less of them, so it amounted to a decent total instead of the same 8 three times), like Adventure 2. Adventure 2, however, had an issue where they apparently learned absolutely nothing from Adventure 1, deciding to ruin Tails, make MORE gem-hunting stages, and have more E-102 stages.

If it is just cosmetics you are concerned with, then that is less an issue of designing new playable characters than it is in wanting additional switchable game skins. Most people would probably not be averse to that specifically, provided the skins were 100% optional and characters they belong to given no speaking roles.

For instance, I have no issues with Sega selling DLC to play through levels like this.


I would be totally fine with multiple friends appearing in the story and not being playable in-story, but being unlockable skins.

If they were to have other ACTUALLY playable characters, I would not want it to be like Sonic 06 or Adventure 2 where you're forced to switch to them for sections or levels. I would want them to have their own campaign like Adventure. But unlike Adventure, I don't want up to 6-7 campaigns or for any of them to involve gem hunting, fishing, shooting, being chased or racing Sonic.

I'd only want Tails, Knuckles and maybe Amy, playing like they would/do in 2D games. I want Tails to be Flying Sonic, Knuckles to be glide-and-climb Sonic and Amy to be Sonic with a hammer to launch off the ground.

Everyone else I would want to be skins. Even Amy could just be a skin (though I'd be sad about no hammer), since that'd make more sense anyway. Each campaign could have different characters as skins. Like Sonic having Shadow, Espio, etc. and Knuckles having Rouge...

Although it would get convoluted at this point, due to already programming 3 characters, I would be all over them having a DLC joke campaign with no story that just copies Sonic (so, like Metal Sonic in SADXDC; it'd just be a bigger model, but no gameplay change) where you could play Eggman just running at super speeds with Big and Vector as costumes.

And speaking of which, that Eggman in SA2 thing is blowing my mind. Why does he have his own moves/can't roll (i.e., isn't just a copy of Sonic)?
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby Autosaver » 01 Jun 2013 18:12

@MoldyClay - You can play as Eggman outside his vehicle in the Chao Garden.
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby MoldyClay » 02 Jun 2013 15:27

Autosaver wrote:@MoldyClay - You can play as Eggman outside his vehicle in the Chao Garden.


OH DERP.

First time I played SA2B was when it was new on Gamecube, so I forgot.

When I replayed a month ago, I went to the Chao Garden *once* as Sonic and never went back again.
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby Hamr » 04 Jun 2013 05:25

(Apologies in advance if any of what I am about to say comes across as testy – it is not intentional, but I am still a bit salty about last night’s Game of Thrones.)

MoldyClay wrote:But if we're using Adventure, Adventure 2, Heroes, Sonic 06 and maybe another game that's still out of almost 30 platformers, ~18 of which have characters playable that aren't Sonic.


How many of those ~18 games are actually well-made, though? Without counting, it seems like an extremely small number in my head.

“I don't remember Sonic flying, gliding or having a hammer.”

?

I am not certain how that response is relevant to a comment on the problem of pure clone characters.

Additional characters that are not mechanically identical to Sonic come with their own, separate problems; hence why I say a plague on both their houses.

“Was Sonic 3 & Knuckles not doing it right? Or any of the Advance games?”

Well, full disclosure: I am not a particular fan of the way Dimps handled playable characters (or much of anything else), and the Knuckles levels are easily my least favorite part about 3&K, which is a bit funny because that was as good as playing him ever really got.

“And when I was mentioning having everyone be clones, I am saying I'd want them as like skins. Not new campaigns with added story. Purely an aesthetic thing.”

And as I said, most people would probably not be against that sort of thing (I agree 100% with you on the principle), except Sega has a fairly atrocious track record when it comes to having restraint about the story and the campaigns and the gameplay types. When they put different characters in their games, there is enormous temptation to use those characters as a crutch to compensate for not-wanting to do too much work with the level design.* Until they start releasing games that demonstrates that they can resist that temptation, then a fair degree of skepticism seems warranted.

*
Spoiler:
There is a ‘Not the same game; not the same content’ joke somewhere in there.


“You keep mentioning Unleashed. I haven't played it, but if I am not mistaken, don't you ONLY play Sonic? Werehog Sonic is STILL Sonic”

‘Sonic’ with a different voice, different design, different body with Ristar-esque extensible arms, different lines, different behavior, different gameplay, due to being semi-possessed by a demon. In mechanical and thematic terms — in all the ways that I consider important — not Sonic.

If you tweaked the story to make him a separate individual named Willy the Werehog or whatever, that would not have any actual impact on his quality as a player character.

(Incidentally, if being a distinct character that you play with is the only bar, then we should at least half-count the talking sword in Black Knight that we had to use for all the hilariously-bad motion-control-fighting.)

“And I discount Shadow because that's not what we were talking about. Shadow is a bad game, but it has nothing to do with having Sonic's friends mess up a game where you play Sonic.”

My personal take is that Shadow is a bad game because it is essentially a Sonic game where you almost never play as/like Sonic and are punished for trying to.

“because it's not a game where you play Sonic, and you don't play multiple characters”

That is not strictly true – co-op players can control the characters that run through the levels with Shadow, including Sonic. And in principle you can go through large chunks of the game playing Shadow like a clone of Sonic; it just does not work very well.

(Also, Shadow existing as a character and Shadow the Hedgehog happening as a game are not entirely unrelated. You are never going to get a Sonic game built mostly around him using a gun – that would go against everything about his character. So to build a shooter segment, you need a character where that gameplay is appropriate. Shadow, despite being basically a palette swap, is the franchise’s ‘dark, edgy’ character with the troubled past, so Sega has no problem using him as a vehicle for the godawful gun and, er, vehicle segments in that game (and in ‘06). That is why so much of their marketing for that debacle was ‘No, guys, it’s cool that the main character is busting caps with realistic guns, ‘cause it’s not Sonic.’ If neither he nor any other characters that used guns or mechs or whatever remained only NPCs, then Sonic Team would have had to have scrapped the central design decision that game was built around, and they would have had to have made an actual Sonic game. Just like no Werehog, no extendo-arms brawling. No Silver, no physics puzzles. No Knuckles, no crawling around on walls.)

“Gonna be honest, I played the Power characters as Speed characters, which is probably why I don't see the problem with them. And I don't really remember there being that many actual segments where you needed them. I remember it mostly being to break blocks. Been a while, though. I have intended to replay recently though.”

If you replay the game, take a drink every time you hit a locked door, a character says ‘These enemies must be guarding something’, or every time you kill a batch of enemies and another batch just magically teleport in without you going anywhere. There is just so much shallow combat in that thing. :  x

“Also, correct me if I am wrong, but I was positive you just had to collect red orbs to level up Power, not actually be Power. Or did you have to switch and get them to power them up?”

There are a couple of power-ups like that, but most of the leveling is built around the checkpoint icons, which only level up the formation you run through them with.

I remember that because I always tried to go through those with Flying, because it was the only formation where the epoch-definingly terrible auto-target could not result in forcing the characters to dash/jump off cliffs.

“As for having 4 identical campaigns, I don't see how that's much different from playing Sonic 2 as Sonic or Tails. And to a lesser extent, Sonic 3/K as Sonic, Tails or Knuckles.”

A. As a rule I generally try to avoid making comparisons between Sonic’s recent flailings and his days on the Genesis. That case has already been made a thousand times, and it does not need me to add anything to it. Rather, I prefer to evaluate modern Sonic’s failings (and victories for that matter) on its own merits, irrespective of how things were back in his ‘glory days’.

B. ‘This terrible design decision is just like a design decision from a Classic Sonic Game’ is not a particularly compelling argument to me. Design is either good or bad, and being present in a Sonic game from over twenty years ago does not put something beyond criticism – if anything, we should be even more critical in how we evaluate that sort of thing.

C. That said, since you are the one bringing it up, I feel the need to point out that Tails and Knuckles are completely optional characters in those games (minus maybe the Knuckles levels in the S&K bit, which were rebuilt around his abilities and had completely different bosses). Are you seriously telling me that you do not see the difference between a game where you have the choice of picking different characters for playthroughs, and a game that forces you to replay basically the exact same campaign at least four times?

If I thought Sonic Heroes’s levels were worth replaying in the first place, I would go for pre-existing replay incentives, like collecting all Emblems, or getting all A-ranks, or speed-running. I do not need or want to have to go through near shot-for-shot reruns of same campaign four times (with progressively ugly character designs and one run-through dominated by inane mission objectives such as ‘Find and blow out several dozen torches’) in order to unlock the endgame – and putting those things in *on top of* the emblems and the A-ranks and the speed-running and the shoe-horned additional unlockable difficulty mode just makes those incentives redundant.

The four clone campaigns thing is just there for padding, and this is not even taking into account that Sonic Heroes’s level designers do not just repeat the campaigns verbatim and do not just repeat that silly bird boss twice *per* campaign… they literally copy-and-paste layouts and extensive segments within the stages themselves.

People are always calling games and the people who make them ‘lazy’ for a variety of rather trivial reasons, but I genuinely cannot think of a game from that generation that recycles the same assets, geometry, and content over and over and over again to the extent that Heroes does – and I do not feel inclined to give Sega a pass on that just because they threw in 11 extra character models.

“A problem with Sonic 06 having so many characters was that they shared all the same levels, but interacted differently with them. They should have just had their own levels (and less of them, so it amounted to a decent total instead of the same 8 three times), like Adventure 2.”

Even if you gave the characters their own stages to go with their gameplay, the result would still be a technical monstrosity. That just exchanges the problem of making one physics engine capable of accommodating ~9 different styles of gameplay with the problem of making ~9 different physics engines, and so you still wind up drastically splitting up finite resources like time and money developing that stuff. I mean, Sonic Team is not like Miyamoto – they cannot just come up with random ideas and then tea-table the development cycle by two years to accommodate the pointless mechanics that result.

“I would be totally fine with multiple friends appearing in the story and not being playable in-story, but being unlockable skins.”

We actually agree on this point, I just trust Sega a lot less to not find some way to royally screw it up. :lol:

"you could play Eggman just running at super speeds"

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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby ZSaberLink » 07 Jun 2013 18:36

Btw, is it just me or the graphics look a bit off in Lost World? Maybe it's the lighting or something, but a large part of that first level they showed just looks too dark. Even in IGN's videos (which seemed to be of a lower quality stream), I honestly couldn't tell which game was the Wii U version vs. the 3DS version. I had to go look it up... Speaks volumes about the 3DS version though, it looks quite good (both graphically and gameplay).
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby Autosaver » 07 Jun 2013 20:55

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Looks awesome to me.
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby Mako » 08 Jun 2013 00:15

Yup, we are going to see a bunch of crazy worlds. The more we learn the more excited I get. They said there was a mysterious "fun feature that will allow players to enjoy the game longer". I can still hope for Chao garden. lol

(Updated OP again)
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby Dice » 08 Jun 2013 00:52

Mako wrote:Yup, we are going to see a bunch of crazy worlds. The more we learn the more excited I get. They said there was a mysterious "fun feature that will allow players to enjoy the game longer". I can still hope for Chao garden. lol

(Updated OP again)

They said that? I have to rewatch that awesome gameplay now! I'm okay with this. If Chao Garden is announced I'll buy two copies of both versions to show that support! This game looks so awesome, high quality stuff here. Can't wait. Most anticipated title for me now. Hopefully, E3 will change this, because the more awesome stuff the better!
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby MoldyClay » 08 Jun 2013 05:41

Hamr wrote:How many of those ~18 games are actually well-made, though? Without counting, it seems like an extremely small number in my head.


Most of those are 2D games. So depends if you think they were well made or not. I didn't play the Advance games or Rivals, so I can't comment on them.

I am not certain how that response is relevant to a comment on the problem of pure clone characters.

Additional characters that are not mechanically identical to Sonic come with their own, separate problems; hence why I say a plague on both their houses.


I was specifically talking about Tails, Knuckles and Amy. With exceptions, they generally play identical to Sonic, but have those mentioned abilities. I'm just saying that they could have structured Lost World to have them play identical to Sonic, but have their abilities. Amy's hammer would just be a replacement move and all Knuckles/Tails would do is break a few levels (unless they had paths designed specifically for them, like Sonic 3 & Knuckles).

But my response had nothing to do with if everyone was a direct copy of Sonic. Just if they were Super Mario Bros. 2 different.

Well, full disclosure: I am not a particular fan of the way Dimps handled playable characters (or much of anything else), and the Knuckles levels are easily my least favorite part about 3&K, which is a bit funny because that was as good as playing him ever really got.


I hate Dimps. Solely because of Sonic Rush and 4-1. I've never played the Advance games, but I have heard people like them and they were some sort of shining light amidst Heroes (which I love) and Shadow (which I hate). I liked playing Knuckles and Tails in S3K, but I hated Tails' paths a bit more than Knuckles. Specifically, I hate Marble Garden Zone for everyone. I also may just like Knuckles levels because I like Knuckles and let it blind me, but I mean, I hate his levels in SA2 and most parts you play him in Sonic 06.

And as I said, most people would probably not be against that sort of thing (I agree 100% with you on the principle), except Sega has a fairly atrocious track record when it comes to having restraint about the story and the campaigns and the gameplay types. When they put different characters in their games, there is enormous temptation to use those characters as a crutch to compensate for not-wanting to do too much work with the level design.* Until they start releasing games that demonstrates that they can resist that temptation, then a fair degree of skepticism seems warranted.

*
Spoiler:
There is a ‘Not the same game; not the same content’ joke somewhere in there.


I understand this completely. I just think if any gameplay type could fix this, it may be this one. I think the Unleashed/Colors/Generations style would've been awful for friends to be in (unless they were in Classic Generations or the 3DS one or something).

‘Sonic’ with a different voice, different design, different body with Ristar-esque extensible arms, different lines, different behavior, different gameplay, due to being semi-possessed by a demon. In mechanical and thematic terms — in all the ways that I consider important — not Sonic.

If you tweaked the story to make him a separate individual named Willy the Werehog or whatever, that would not have any actual impact on his quality as a player character.

(Incidentally, if being a distinct character that you play with is the only bar, then we should at least half-count the talking sword in Black Knight that we had to use for all the hilariously-bad motion-control-fighting.)


I understand what you are saying. I just still consider it Sonic because I don't gauge it by how he plays. Sonic with a sword, Sonic possessed by a demon, Sonic with slow shoes, Sonic in a car, etc are all just categorized as Sonic to me. That's just how I choose to look at it. I'm not defending or saying SEGA should experiment with Sonic's gameplay to where he becomes a completely different character and that it gets a free pass for "being Sonic". Just that I consider it "Sonic himself, but playing like trash".

My personal take is that Shadow is a bad game because it is essentially a Sonic game where you almost never play as/like Sonic and are punished for trying to.


I accept that.

That is not strictly true – co-op players can control the characters that run through the levels with Shadow, including Sonic. And in principle you can go through large chunks of the game playing Shadow like a clone of Sonic; it just does not work very well.

(Also, Shadow existing as a character and Shadow the Hedgehog happening as a game are not entirely unrelated. You are never going to get a Sonic game built mostly around him using a gun – that would go against everything about his character. So to build a shooter segment, you need a character where that gameplay is appropriate. Shadow, despite being basically a palette swap, is the franchise’s ‘dark, edgy’ character with the troubled past, so Sega has no problem using him as a vehicle for the godawful gun and, er, vehicle segments in that game (and in ‘06). That is why so much of their marketing for that debacle was ‘No, guys, it’s cool that the main character is busting caps with realistic guns, ‘cause it’s not Sonic.’ If neither he nor any other characters that used guns or mechs or whatever remained only NPCs, then Sonic Team would have had to have scrapped the central design decision that game was built around, and they would have had to have made an actual Sonic game. Just like no Werehog, no extendo-arms brawling. No Silver, no physics puzzles. No Knuckles, no crawling around on walls.)


WHOA WHOA WHOA... what? A second person could play the characters that follow you around?

Also, yeah. I know that the characters directly affect the world (since it needs to be designed around them).

Apparently, Silver can glitch through the door at the end of the desert level and not have to do the ball rolling puzzle. Blew my mind. Learning new things all day.

If you replay the game, take a drink every time you hit a locked door, a character says ‘These enemies must be guarding something’, or every time you kill a batch of enemies and another batch just magically teleport in without you going anywhere. There is just so much shallow combat in that thing. :  x


Maybe I'm just used to it. I do intend to replay it (I replayed Adventure and Adventure 2, showing my girlfriend, so obviously, Heroes seems natural to come next). So I am excited to get a slap in the face of my memories.

There are a couple of power-ups like that, but most of the leveling is built around the checkpoint icons, which only level up the formation you run through them with.

I remember that because I always tried to go through those with Flying, because it was the only formation where the epoch-definingly terrible auto-target could not result in forcing the characters to dash/jump off cliffs.


Aha. I may also have been thinking of the stuff for the Team Attack.

A. As a rule I generally try to avoid making comparisons between Sonic’s recent flailings and his days on the Genesis. That case has already been made a thousand times, and it does not need me to add anything to it. Rather, I prefer to evaluate modern Sonic’s failings (and victories for that matter) on its own merits, irrespective of how things were back in his ‘glory days’.

B. ‘This terrible design decision is just like a design decision from a Classic Sonic Game’ is not a particularly compelling argument to me. Design is either good or bad, and being present in a Sonic game from over twenty years ago does not put something beyond criticism – if anything, we should be even more critical in how we evaluate that sort of thing.

C. That said, since you are the one bringing it up, I feel the need to point out that Tails and Knuckles are completely optional characters in those games (minus maybe the Knuckles levels in the S&K bit, which were rebuilt around his abilities and had completely different bosses). Are you seriously telling me that you do not see the difference between a game where you have the choice of picking different characters for playthroughs, and a game that forces you to replay basically the exact same campaign at least four times?

If I thought Sonic Heroes’s levels were worth replaying in the first place, I would go for pre-existing replay incentives, like collecting all Emblems, or getting all A-ranks, or speed-running. I do not need or want to have to go through near shot-for-shot reruns of same campaign four times (with progressively ugly character designs and one run-through dominated by inane mission objectives such as ‘Find and blow out several dozen torches’) in order to unlock the endgame – and putting those things in *on top of* the emblems and the A-ranks and the speed-running and the shoe-horned additional unlockable difficulty mode just makes those incentives redundant.

The four clone campaigns thing is just there for padding, and this is not even taking into account that Sonic Heroes’s level designers do not just repeat the campaigns verbatim and do not just repeat that silly bird boss twice *per* campaign… they literally copy-and-paste layouts and extensive segments within the stages themselves.

People are always calling games and the people who make them ‘lazy’ for a variety of rather trivial reasons, but I genuinely cannot think of a game from that generation that recycles the same assets, geometry, and content over and over and over again to the extent that Heroes does – and I do not feel inclined to give Sega a pass on that just because they threw in 11 extra character models.


A. I don't compare them either. Aside from a few things, I stopped comparing games to predecessors and just look at them as individual games. I was just saying "playing the same levels as different characters is the same as playing the same levels as different characters".

B. Wasn't saying it was okay. Just that I didn't view it as being all that different aside from them having slightly different story segments.

C. As I said in my comment prior, I flat out said that I look at it wrong intentionally. Yes, Tails & Knuckles are optional and the 4 teams are required (for the true ending. You technically don't actually have to play them all, but that depends on how you want to look at it).

But since the 4 campaigns are essentially copypastas, I choose to look at them in the same manner, rather than as what it is. I know very well that it is padding, but I *always* looked at the "True Ending" stuff as its own thing and alternate campaigns as optional. This goes for both Adventures, Heroes and 06. It's NOT if you're intending to ACTUALLY beat it, but that's always how I looked at it. I'd view it as "beaten" when I did one campaign.

I just enjoyed playing Sonic Heroes, so playing the game 3 times was not really annoying to me. Chaotix was possibly the only one that I felt annoyed with because some of the objectives. I believe it's also the only one I didn't play multiple times.

So it's not so much an issue of my not being able to see that it's padding as it is that I simply liked the levels, so I had no problem with the set up.

[quoote]Even if you gave the characters their own stages to go with their gameplay, the result would still be a technical monstrosity. That just exchanges the problem of making one physics engine capable of accommodating ~9 different styles of gameplay with the problem of making ~9 different physics engines, and so you still wind up drastically splitting up finite resources like time and money developing that stuff. I mean, Sonic Team is not like Miyamoto – they cannot just come up with random ideas and then tea-table the development cycle by two years to accommodate the pointless mechanics that result. [/quote]

Well, when I was suggesting making separate levels and stuff, I would hope the characters would be condensed.

Also, not ALL the characters have their own playstyles that affect the world. Primarily, Sonic and Blaze are practically the same (aside from Sonic's gems, which are broken). Shadow is about the same as Sonic as well. The primary difference between them is the fact Shadow has vehicles and Sonic has mach speed crap. Shadow's vehicles were unnecessary and are probably the parts I hate most in the game (though, I have less problems with the buggy than the flying parts). Amy was all around badly designed. She should not have been playable. I liked Amy in the other games, but she's possibly the worst playable character in Sonic 06.

But I do understand what you're saying. Though it should obviously be considered that SEGA just gave up and rushed the game at the end. Sonic's Gem Gauge doesn't even go down. Some items are also just placed in levels for no reason (there's a spring in Shadow's Kingdom Valley that springs you back before a bridge, for no reason. Not even a Soleanna medal). Not everything can be blamed on that, but it definitely helped.

To be honest, as much as I do like Silver's concept, I'm pretty sure the one of the big reasons the game is a mess is because of him. He is the reason for probably 90% of the physics in the game and is what breaks practically everything.

We actually agree on this point, I just trust Sega a lot less to not find some way to royally screw it up. :lol:

Image

<3


And there you go!
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby tendoboy1984 » 08 Jun 2013 12:07

Autosaver wrote:Image

Looks awesome to me.


So this is the sequel to Sonic Colors I've been dreaming of... :)

EDIT: Modern Sonic has his spinning legs back! Yay!
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby KingBroly » 08 Jun 2013 12:12

It seems that Sega's really slowed Sonic down to give players more control. I hope that's a good thing.
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby MegaMan64 » 08 Jun 2013 12:19

Im glad Dimps is not working on the 3DS version. It would have been a total funk-fest. Glad both versions look great. Kinda sucks they brought down sonics speed. Hope there are some levels that rely on speed rather than platforming.
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby Rurouni720 » 08 Jun 2013 12:20

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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby TheLastBlade » 08 Jun 2013 16:19

Haha, some of you guys want Sonic's crappy speed back :p
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby Devil_Rising » 08 Jun 2013 16:43

TheLastBlade wrote:Haha, some of you guys want Sonic's crappy speed back :p



Well, Sonic is supposed to be "the fastest thing alive".

The trick in 3D is how to actually make that work without being broken.
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby tendoboy1984 » 08 Jun 2013 17:02

MegaMan64 wrote:Im glad Dimps is not working on the 3DS version. It would have been a total funk-fest. Glad both versions look great. Kinda sucks they brought down sonics speed. Hope there are some levels that rely on speed rather than platforming.


Dimps IS making it.
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby MegaMan64 » 08 Jun 2013 19:13

tendoboy1984 wrote:
MegaMan64 wrote:Im glad Dimps is not working on the 3DS version. It would have been a total funk-fest. Glad both versions look great. Kinda sucks they brought down sonics speed. Hope there are some levels that rely on speed rather than platforming.


Dimps IS making it.



Hmm. I was pretty sure that Dimps was not making it. Also, the 3DS version looks way better than Generations, So I thought another company was working on it. Well, hats off to Dimps.
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Re: Sonic: Lost World

Postby HammerGalladeBro » 08 Jun 2013 21:24

tendoboy1984 wrote:
MegaMan64 wrote:Im glad Dimps is not working on the 3DS version. It would have been a total funk-fest. Glad both versions look great. Kinda sucks they brought down sonics speed. Hope there are some levels that rely on speed rather than platforming.


Dimps IS making it.

Oh boy. Well, game looks nice at least, and hopefully they won't make it Rush 5 or Unleashed 3D in a handheld and be as faithful as possible to the console game.
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