Wii U - The "everything" Info Thread

Everything about the Wii and its games...

Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby KingBroly » 26 Nov 2012 09:19

Nintendo's philosophy is probably 'we'll make them work for our love or they'll die.' Lots of developers went under because of PS3/360 development because they couldn't handle it. I imagine the same will happen for more developers next gen as well, especially since developers want a big hit right out of the gate.
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby Devil_Rising » 26 Nov 2012 09:22

I think people on here should quit arguing semantics over Wii U hardware specs that, the fact is, NONE OF US actually know 100% what they are, and even if we did, most of us wouldn't really ever be able to point out "Oh, so this is exactly how it all breaks down", because it's custom hardware, NOT off the shelf PC hardware.

I think people should quit arguing, a mere week after the thing launches, about whether or not the Wii U "is powerful enough", and just enjoy the damn games. Just saying. Cheers.
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby Triforce of the Gods » 26 Nov 2012 09:42

ddddd wrote:First, that you should feel bad for visiting Zelda Informer :P
Second, thats some Yamauchi level of trolling if they really did that, which makes no sense since any dev working on WiiU would know how to or if they should use it.

I laugh when they call themselves the best place to go for Nintendo and Wii U news and that they get the most articles a day at at least 10 a day. Plus the fact that this particular article is something people here have been saying for awhile now.
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby Broken_Cartridge » 26 Nov 2012 09:46

For the record, I don't regularly visit Zelda Informer. It was an article that I found because it was linked to from another website. Also, I wasn't arguing about the specs of the Wii U, I posted this because I was curious if the guy on ZI was speaking out of his bum hole or not. I could care less if the Wii U is "Next Gen Powerful" or not.
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby hergipotter » 26 Nov 2012 10:38

Devil_Rising wrote:I think people on here should quit arguing semantics over Wii U hardware specs that, the fact is, NONE OF US actually know 100% what they are, and even if we did, most of us wouldn't really ever be able to point out "Oh, so this is exactly how it all breaks down", because it's custom hardware, NOT off the shelf PC hardware.

I think people should quit arguing, a mere week after the thing launches, about whether or not the Wii U "is powerful enough", and just enjoy the damn games. Just saying. Cheers.

I agree with you on the fact that people have to stop arguing about WiiU specs but the 4 RAM chips are indeed off the shelf hardware.
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby ddddd » 26 Nov 2012 10:47

Broken_Cartridge wrote:For the record, I don't regularly visit Zelda Informer. It was an article that I found because it was linked to from another website. Also, I wasn't arguing about the specs of the Wii U, I posted this because I was curious if the guy on ZI was speaking out of his bum hole or not. I could care less if the Wii U is "Next Gen Powerful" or not.

We already knew that developers would be able to use the GPGPU to offload those tasks from the CPU since VGLeaks posted the specs of the WiiU, then Iwata said it himself for further confirmation, and surely the GPU is generations ahead of the 360's and would be able to do those tasks better than the CPU. Now, purposedly making the CPU bad so devs would do the offload right away? Doubtful, almost everything that comes from ZI is dubious.
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby kksliders » 26 Nov 2012 15:24

hergipotter wrote:
kksliders wrote:DDR3 has a 64-bit interface as standard:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_bandwidth

Yes that's true but i think wikipedia is not really precise with it's nomenclature what leads you to a false interpretation imo.
In DRAM devices for PCs, there are several chips of RAM combined in one rank with a standard interface of 64 bit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR_SDRAM# ... cteristics
Nonetheless each of these chips, that form the rank, has its own databus width (x4, x8 or x16).
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(src: http://books.google.de/books/about/Memo ... edir_esc=y page 413)
The four chips on the WiiU board imo are nothing but such single chips, so i guess the 12.8 GB/s thing is the truth...


x4, x8, and x16 are device configuration data widths, not data bus width. Each of the four chips on the Wii U, while technically single chips, house even smaller "chips" yet which are measured in megabits (Mb) and in configurations of x4, x8 or x16 expressed as 256x16 in the case of the Wii U. 256 multiplied by 16 equal 4 gigabits which is 512 MB (megabytes). This is most likely where the "experts" are getting confused. Here is an example of what appears to be the insides of an x8 module:

Image

Notice the individual "chips" (don't know what else to call them). Again, here is the Hynix specs from their own website:

https://www.skhynix.com/products/computing/view.jsp?info.ramKind=19&info.serialNo=H5TQ4G63MFR

The H5TQ4G43MFR-xxC, H5TQ4G83MFR-xxC and H5TQ4G63MFR-xxC are a 4,294,967,296-bit CMOS Double Data Rate III (DDR3) Synchronous DRAM, ideally suited for the main memory applications which requires large memory density and high bandwidth. SK hynix 4Gb DDR3 SDRAMs offer fully synchronous operations referenced to both rising and falling edges of the clock. While all addresses and control inputs are latched on the rising edges of the CK (falling edges of the CK), Data, Data strobes and Write data masks inputs are sampled on both rising and falling edges of it. The data paths are internally pipelined and 8-bit prefetched to achieve very high bandwidth.


These part numbers are not for complete sticks of PC RAM, they're for the individual chips themselves obviously. x4 and x8 configurations have less "chips" inside of the main chip. The RAM modules used in the Wii U would look like the above image split into 16 sub-chips (sorry couldn't find a pic). Hynix sells their 4 Gb chips in all three configurations:

Image

All three are 4Gb (gigabit) chips with different sub-chip configurations. It's all there in the manufacturer's specs. The assumption appears to be that there are no sub-chips and each chip is "16-bit" and 16 x 4 = 64 making them total to 64-bit with the 12.8 GB/sec bandwidth. If this were the case, nvidia and amd/ati would be in trouble because they do the same thing with their GPUs. And would it even function? Going by the traces between the two pairs, the RAM pairs appear to be physically separated. That would make it "32-bit" using the same math and give a bandwidth of 6.4 GB/sec.

Wii U has a memory bandwidth of 25.6 GB/sec assuming dual channel is being used and I don't see how it wouldn't be. No developers mentioned a bottleneck for RAM, just a bottleneck for CPU. Alstrong from B3D is wrong. Richard Leadbetter is wrong. Anandtech is wrong. Neogaf is wrong. Everybody parroting this disinfo is wrong. None of these guys understand what they're talking about here.
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby ddddd » 26 Nov 2012 15:35

The only problem I have is that an Arkham City dev (the one that leaked the full specs of the console) said that it indeed it was a "1GB of slow RAM", and this was said months before E3. Maybe you could send this post as a tip to RMC so it gets attention.
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby kksliders » 26 Nov 2012 16:03

ddddd wrote:The only problem I have is that an Arkham City dev (the one that leaked the full specs of the console) said that it indeed it was a "1GB of slow RAM", and this was said months before E3. Maybe you could send this post as a tip to RMC so it gets attention.


It is slow RAM by modern PC standards. By console standards it's a tiny bit better than the 360 and equal to the PS3's 256MB of XDR RAM (the other 256MB is slower). A modern low end PC graphics card with only a 64-bit bus (no multi-channel utilization) width using GDDR5 RAM even has a higher bandwidth (28.8 ). The high end is like 288 MB/sec or something like that.

Here is a neogaf thread spreading around erroneous "hard facts" about the Wii U:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=44512184#post44512184

Hard facts (either publicly disclosed, or a non-public leak which can be vouched by somebody trustworthy on this very forum):

[*]2 GB of gDDR3 memory @800MHz (DDR3-1600), organized in 4x 4Gb (256Mx16) modules, sitting on a 64bit bus (@800MHz). That gives a net BW of 12800MB/s (12.5GB/s). We can conveniently refer to this pool as 'MEM2'. Currently 1GB of that pool is reserved for the OS.


I've only listed one of their "facts", specifically the "fact" in question (along with quoting the lead sentence referring to these as 'hard facts')

While they understand that the chips are each 4Gb chips with 16 256Mb 'sub chips', they are wrongly assuming it is a 64-bit bus based on the incorrect "experts" like B3D and Anandtech. Like hergipotter mentioned, on a PC there are several chips combined on a DRAM module. They are combined in configurations like x4, x8, x16, doubled-sided, single-sided, low density, high density, etc. These individual chips they make these days, like the ones on the Wii U, also have "sub-chips" underneath their single chip casing. So this neogaf person got the 256Mx16 part right but is repeating the 64-bit 12.5GB/s disinformation.

This is why people shouldn't just accept "hard facts" from some random internet anonymous authority-type. Especially sites like Anandtech and Digital Foundry which should know better. When they repeat the disinfo, it makes the disinformation 'reputable' which then gets repeated as a reliable source. Also, notice the traces in between the pairs of RAM chips:

Image

There are no traces connecting the two pairs, however. Which might be another knock against the neogaf "hard facts" because they are considering the total RAM as a single pool when from a CPU/GPU perspective they might be 'wired' separately. In other words, 1GB isn't just set aside for the CPU, 1GB is physically dedicated system RAM sort of like how the 256MB in the PS3 is. And if that's the case, the GPU's 1GB also may be dedicated. This might mean nothing though, it's just a guess. If it were the case, this would improve bandwidth over the 360 design where all RAM is shared within a single pool. The reason why the split pool is a problem on the PS3 is because it's split into two 256MB chunks and each has different bandwidths for reads and writes. Sometimes it's a good thing for PS3, but when it comes to 360 ports it isn't because the RAM amount is low. This effects games such as Skyrim, the primary reason for the large save game problem. If the PS3 had more RAM it wouldn't be a problem. The Wii U has 4x the RAM as the PS3 so it should have no RAM problem for a game like Skyrim. Skyrim relies on the CPU though, the shadow maps especially are CPU-intensive. It would need some optimization to run on the Wii U and Bethesda aren't very good at things like that.
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby ddddd » 26 Nov 2012 16:18

Once again, If you think you have the best understanding of this and with proof, then by all means try to spread this. Im sure that, if RMC doesnt, NotEnoughShaders will accept a user submitted article with all this
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby kksliders » 26 Nov 2012 17:25

That's probably a good idea, I'll send it to RMC

I don't think I have the best understanding, I just have an understanding. And I think anybody can have an understanding of how this works. Unfortunately what spread virally is a misunderstanding. Because it was repeated by reputable sources, nobody bothers to fact check it on their own.

(removed example, it wasn't applicable, I'll find a new one)

Now the erroneous 'logic' being used by the sources of the 'slow RAM' rumor were thinking that these are like individual chips on a PC DRAM stick. But these ones are larger than those usually are and underneath resemble the dissected view I posted earlier.
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby kurokotetsu » 27 Nov 2012 02:31

A question for a little Nintendo fan. I'm dying to get a Wii U, but here in Mexico, we've seen several delays, form the 19th to the 25th and now to the 29th. And I'm willing to wait and buy it at the inflated price tag they give it. But I just remembered a little detail. I do no own a HDTV, and really I don't want one, I couldn't give less of a fuck for HD gaming. My old SDTV works perfectly and buying a new TV seems like a waste of money I don't have to spare. But now re-reading the specs I only see listed the HDMI cable, and I have a question. IS there still an RCA Connector, Componente Video or even S-Video, tha sad SDTV has. Are those still included or I will have to make an extra investment.
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby Triforce of the Gods » 27 Nov 2012 04:09

kurokotetsu wrote:A question for a little Nintendo fan. I'm dying to get a Wii U, but here in Mexico, we've seen several delays, form the 19th to the 25th and now to the 29th. And I'm willing to wait and buy it at the inflated price tag they give it. But I just remembered a little detail. I do no own a HDTV, and really I don't want one, I couldn't give less of a fuck for HD gaming. My old SDTV works perfectly and buying a new TV seems like a waste of money I don't have to spare. But now re-reading the specs I only see listed the HDMI cable, and I have a question. IS there still an RCA Connector, Componente Video or even S-Video, tha sad SDTV has. Are those still included or I will have to make an extra investment.

You can use the same set of AV cables the Wii uses, but it doesn't come with one. It only comes with the HDMI cable.
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby kurokotetsu » 27 Nov 2012 04:29

Triforce of the Gods wrote:
kurokotetsu wrote:A question for a little Nintendo fan. I'm dying to get a Wii U, but here in Mexico, we've seen several delays, form the 19th to the 25th and now to the 29th. And I'm willing to wait and buy it at the inflated price tag they give it. But I just remembered a little detail. I do no own a HDTV, and really I don't want one, I couldn't give less of a fuck for HD gaming. My old SDTV works perfectly and buying a new TV seems like a waste of money I don't have to spare. But now re-reading the specs I only see listed the HDMI cable, and I have a question. IS there still an RCA Connector, Componente Video or even S-Video, tha sad SDTV has. Are those still included or I will have to make an extra investment.

You can use the same set of AV cables the Wii uses, but it doesn't come with one. It only comes with the HDMI cable.
My Wii is perfectly functional and has all the cables, so I guess I'll use that. THanks for telling me.
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby wiiarebrothers » 27 Nov 2012 06:04

kksliders wrote:That's probably a good idea, I'll send it to RMC

I don't think I have the best understanding, I just have an understanding. And I think anybody can have an understanding of how this works. Unfortunately what spread virally is a misunderstanding. Because it was repeated by reputable sources, nobody bothers to fact check it on their own.

(removed example, it wasn't applicable, I'll find a new one)

Now the erroneous 'logic' being used by the sources of the 'slow RAM' rumor were thinking that these are like individual chips on a PC DRAM stick. But these ones are larger than those usually are and underneath resemble the dissected view I posted earlier.


I think this analysis makes sense. It could explain why no devs complained about the "slow RAM", and also why Nintendo would choose such a small interface for such a big amount of RAM.
It could be interesting to see this reach NeoGAF since they also have some users actually working on WiiU, that could confirm or deny. AFAIK, they have yet to confirm or deny the "slow ram" thing though.
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby Devil_Rising » 27 Nov 2012 10:34

So hey, TECH NERDS, how about them Wii U GAMES? Amiright?

P.S. Jesus Christ leap-frogging over a Monster Truck, QUIT TALKING ABOUT THE F***ING SPECS.

P.P.S. You gotta wonder where a guy like Cort is when a thread like this has been completely highjacked by an off-topic subject like Wii U specs, when this is clearly talking about the Wii U launch itself. He always seems to be right on top of that sort of thing, even when people aren't always necessarily off topic. :mrgreen:
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby Triforce of the Gods » 27 Nov 2012 10:42

Still playing ZombiU cause I had to reset due to a game-ending bug in the Nursery. Having so much fun, though! The only reason I'm also still playing New Super Mario Bros. U is because I wait to play it with my fiance (she handles the Boost Blocks). And then there's Nintendo Land...goddamn that Donkey Kong Crash Course x_x
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby ddddd » 27 Nov 2012 17:11

Devil_Rising wrote:So hey, TECH NERDS, how about them Wii U GAMES? Amiright?

P.S. Jesus Christ leap-frogging over a Monster Truck, QUIT TALKING ABOUT THE F***ING SPECS.

P.P.S. You gotta wonder where a guy like Cort is when a thread like this has been completely highjacked by an off-topic subject like Wii U specs, when this is clearly talking about the Wii U launch itself. He always seems to be right on top of that sort of thing, even when people aren't always necessarily off topic. :mrgreen:

The OP never states that it is forbiden to talk about specs, in fact, the OP even has tech specs written on it, and the first page is filled with tech talk.
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby Broken_Cartridge » 27 Nov 2012 17:31

Devil_Rising wrote:So hey, TECH NERDS, how about them Wii U GAMES? Amiright?

P.S. Jesus Christ leap-frogging over a Monster Truck, QUIT TALKING ABOUT THE F***ING SPECS.

P.P.S. You gotta wonder where a guy like Cort is when a thread like this has been completely highjacked by an off-topic subject like Wii U specs, when this is clearly talking about the Wii U launch itself. He always seems to be right on top of that sort of thing, even when people aren't always necessarily off topic. :mrgreen:

I'm not a big fan of all the tech talk either, but this isn't "Wii U - The Launch Games Thread" it's a thread that is meant to talk about things related to the launch of the Wii U (which includes both games and tech)

With that said, I think that the title/direction of this thread could be changed. We do already have a thread for discussion on the "guts" (the tech side) of the Wii U. So this could be more directed towards everything but specs.

-------

On topic, am I remembering things wrong, or do we have another Nintendo Direct in store for Wii U games before the end of the year?
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby ddddd » 27 Nov 2012 17:42

Broken_Cartridge wrote:On topic, am I remembering things wrong, or do we have another Nintendo Direct in store for Wii U games before the end of the year?

Cant remember right now, but if they go with their by-monthly schedule, we should get one next year. I guess we will get one for the TVii update sometime in december.
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby Sammet » 28 Nov 2012 06:57

My copy of Mass Effect 3/ZombiU have been posted, no update on my premium console from Amazon UK - it's still showing "Not yet dispatched". Fingers crossed they get it sent tomorrow.

Has anyone had an order update in the UK? I've heard that Shopto have already started sending them out today, and Sainsburys seem to have started dispatching too.

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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby hergipotter » 28 Nov 2012 08:38

Sammet wrote:Has anyone had an order update in the UK? I've heard that Shopto have already started sending them out today, and Sainsburys seem to have started dispatching too.

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Some people on neogaf have their EU WiiUs shipped from amazon.uk resp. amazon.de, others, like me, don't.
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby Sammet » 28 Nov 2012 11:38

hergipotter wrote:
Sammet wrote:Has anyone had an order update in the UK? I've heard that Shopto have already started sending them out today, and Sainsburys seem to have started dispatching too.

Some people on neogaf have their EU WiiUs shipped from amazon.uk resp. amazon.de, others, like me, don't.


Hopefully they'll get them out soon. My status updated to "Dispatching soon" now on Amazon UK so fingers crossed everyone else is getting them sent out now.

Also LoveFilm app is already working apparently (from neogaf)

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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby pokemaster515 » 28 Nov 2012 18:55

Hmm... just out of curiousity I checked Craigslist for my area and happened to see about 75 Wii Us on there (most of them deluxe). The prices are pretty outrageous and I don't even think they are completely sold out in my town. :?

Someone's even asking for $700 firm, good luck with that.
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Re: Wii U - The Launch Info Thread (Happy Launch Day!)

Postby Broken_Cartridge » 28 Nov 2012 19:15

Around my area, the Wii U is either not selling well, or Nintendo is keeping them in stock. My local GameStop has 9 Wii U Deluxe consoles in stock, and apparently most of the Wait List customers changed their minds about getting the Wii U.
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