Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Everything about the Wii and its games...

Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby KingBroly » 29 Jan 2013 18:21

gtt wrote:
Zug Zug wrote:
BMOTime wrote:I was reading about the PS4 leak specs on NeoGaf, but I got tired about all the Sonydrones saying like the best console ever Nintendo and Microsoft are shovel. So I came here to know honestly and whatever the true is. How much difference we will see between the three consoles and how the Wii U stands there. Thanks :)


Yeah, there are more Sony drones on GAF than Nintendo or Microsoft ones.
The Jaguar cores in PS4 are weak laptop CPUs. So far, the specs of both Next box and PS4 are unimpressive.
Sony and MS going the stingy route. Here's a nice video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euH3ZbMBZDk


however, they put the next gen consoles well beyond the reach of the wiiu. that's the issue.


But will it make it impossible to do so because of architectural hardware differences? No. That is the big reason why Wii didn't get many of the ports Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 had. The Wii was too architecturally archaic compared to those to receive much of anything. Does that mean Wii U will get ports this time around? No. Because I think third parties are already lining up excuses to not port to it, see: Tomb Raider.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby RD3AV5 » 29 Jan 2013 18:52

however, they put the next gen consoles well beyond the reach of the wiiu. that's the issue.


But will it make it impossible to do so because of architectural hardware differences? No. That is the big reason why Wii didn't get many of the ports Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 had. The Wii was too architecturally archaic compared to those to receive much of anything. Does that mean Wii U will get ports this time around? No. Because I think third parties are already lining up excuses to not port to it, see: Tomb Raider.


Exactly. There aren't any huge technological leaps this gen that could really hinder the Wii U getting the same 3rd Party love from developers. It's a lack of time/money/and or desire to bring 3rd party games to the U.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby Devil_Rising » 29 Jan 2013 19:32

Give it a 6 month timespan, and Wii U will start getting a lot more of the multi-console games. Fact is, many developers simply didn't want to toss in Wii U development late in dev cycles for games they were almost finished with. But you can bet we'll be seeing more third party ports as 2013 rolls along.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby KingBroly » 29 Jan 2013 22:26

I would hope so. Iwata keeps mentioning that 'we'll talk 3rd party support at a later time' and yet...nothing.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby ddddd » 02 Feb 2013 10:41

From the Nintendo Q4 report:

Q. Isnt the WiiU architecture too much focused on the GPU?

Miyamoto : For High End graphics there is a hurdle, since we have to reeducate our people. The development itself hasnt changed but we are recruiting specialists that can become core members in each specialized area. External Developers are used to shader techniques and we are collaborating a lot with external companies nowadays so we have a very good development structure.

Iwata: Every gaming hardware has its specialities. There is a timing of hit and miss before the functions can be used fully. We were not able to provide development kits that get out all the power of wiiu until mid of last year. With other gaming consoles firms had 6 to 7 years to experiment but our console has a different balance so it is easy to see who has adapted and who hasnt. However this is something time will heal so we are not too worried.

Takeda : WiiU is a machine that has a lot of performance compared to its power consumption. The GPU is definately more pronounced than the CPU . There are people saying that the CPU is weak but that is not true. It is a trendl that the cash memory is whats getting biggrr with CPUs not the processing power. i do not think at the CPu is underpowered. Its just a design where the memory is more stressed.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby J0RdAnN » 02 Feb 2013 10:56

the way they talk about it, it makes me feel like it's stuff like another Capcom Zelda. I want something new. Hell make Darkstalkers 4 WiiU exclusive.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby bomblord » 02 Feb 2013 14:06

I don't think there's anything Sony or Microsoft can do to put their consoles out of the reach of the wiiU.

What can be done graphically is very finite and we are reaching a point where a PC with a GPU that can outclass the entire 360 is only able to output the same graphics in a higher resolution and at a higher frame rate. We aren't seeing any major lighting, physics, polygon or AI differences in hardware that outclasses the current gen consoles by magnitudes of 10. (this is not to say there is not a difference but when compared side by side it's negligible and the only real exceptions can be counted on one hand)

The wiiU is also more powerful than the current gen when taken as a whole. The trend this generation will probably be the wiiU will get the exact same game running at either a lower frame rate or a lower resolution because we are at a point graphically where nothing short of real time raytracing will allow the huge jump we've seen in previous generations. Every effect a high end PC can achieve graphically (Lighting, physics, Poly's, Depth of field blur etc etc etc) the wiiU can do on a smaller scale without exception.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby Darth Vader » 02 Feb 2013 16:33

bomblord wrote:What can be done graphically is very finite and we are reaching a point where a PC with a GPU that can outclass the entire 360 is only able to output the same graphics in a higher resolution and at a higher frame rate. We aren't seeing any major lighting, physics, polygon or AI differences in hardware that outclasses the current gen consoles by magnitudes of 10. (this is not to say there is not a difference but when compared side by side it's negligible and the only real exceptions can be counted on one hand)

that's only because we live in an age of console ports and console development... half the reason you see most of these PC games pumping out similar visuals to consoles is because half of the PC games out today are ported directly from consoles. A powerful PC can do much, much more than just output the same graphics as a 360 at a higher resolution or framerate and you'll start to see visuals on PC improve once this generation is in full swing and developers try to accomplish more
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby Berrix » 03 Feb 2013 15:30

Devil_Rising wrote:Give it a 6 month timespan, and Wii U will start getting a lot more of the multi-console games. Fact is, many developers simply didn't want to toss in Wii U development late in dev cycles for games they were almost finished with. But you can bet we'll be seeing more third party ports as 2013 rolls along.


As a game designer myself I can vouche how this mentality is usually at work for some who have said positive things about any console at any given generation. Especially when it involves a a newly released console. Take Aliens: Colonel Marines for example; Gearbox would have already been well into development before they even received a devkit for the Wii U, let alone one that's utilizing it's full power. At that point you're only wasting resources having one console version developed on a tail end of the others, holding the others back and forcing to cut corners constantly. Probably why SEGA outsourced it to another company (which apparently has had good ports, so I'll reserve judgement on).

The Wii U kits, let alone the console, came to many in the midst of their developments. Lord knows what to happen when 2013 rolls further down, but it will come with more companies better prepared once more. It's just humorous that the first 3 months will determine how Nintendo has completely failed this generation when Sony goobered their first two years with the PS3 and saw minimal reaction for.

Darth Vader wrote:that's only because we live in an age of console ports and console development... half the reason you see most of these PC games pumping out similar visuals to consoles is because half of the PC games out today are ported directly from consoles. A powerful PC can do much, much more than just output the same graphics as a 360 at a higher resolution or framerate and you'll start to see visuals on PC improve once this generation is in full swing and developers try to accomplish more


This is also true, too. But utilizing a PC to it's full potential is absolutely costly, almost to a point where even many major companies cannot push that risk without a guaranteed reward. What's a better strategy? Porting the game from the consoles with slight improvements, most gamers among many don't notice much when they're immersed in their gaming. Only ones who generally do pause the game for screens to try and often prove their superiority complex.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby bomblord » 04 Feb 2013 23:54

I return armed with more knowledge as well as some forgotten facts.

Even though consoles do not and will not ever have as much raw power as PC's (The most powerful graphics card on the market is capable of 10-20x the raw power of what is rumored to be the next generation of hardware) consoles have specialized hardware is dedicated to gaming that allow them to "squeeze" more power out of inferior hardware.

There are two major reasons why consoles can outperform PC's that should blow them out of the water in raw power.

1. PC graphics are coded to a middleware program like directX and then directX turns the instructions into readable code for the CPU on the fly. PC's have to have this because if they were to code is straight to the hardware it would only run on the hardware they coded it for.
Game consoles have the graphics coded straight to the hardware, with no middle man this frees up a lot of extra gpu and processor cycles to do other things, like additional effects or increased resolution.

2. Consoles have modified GPU's with special hardware in them whose sole purpose is to process common tasks, such as programmable shaders. When a shader is run through that specific pipeline it costs nothing to render; this can only be accomplished because of part 1. This further frees up GPU cycles allowing more effects, higher resolutions etc.

Think of it like a highway bypass, the specialized hardware is the bypass where the main GPU is the highway, if a car needs to go to a very specific destination it can go through the bypass instead of clogging up traffic by going down the highway, allowing both the car to get to it's destination faster as well as allowing more traffic to get down the highway.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby KingBroly » 05 Feb 2013 01:21

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.ph ... tcount=719

So...528 Gflops for the GPU? I guess. Maybe. That GPU looks...exotic, to put it lightly. So that would be near the high end of expectations, but not the end-all be-all. It still doesn't explain how it works with the CPU, nor why it costs so darn much to make/ship/sell. It apparently has 37mb of edRAM as well, which is a good thing.

Someone on neogaf called it the GameCube of this generation because the on-spec sheets were completely useless to measuring its' power, where some games completely outclassed everything on PS2 and Xbox. It's also a middle finger to all the techies out there wanting to find out how powerful their hardware is.

Maybe with Nintendo's partnerships, assuming they're good games, will result in more than just first parties taking advantage of their hardware this time around.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby bomblord » 05 Feb 2013 01:53

KingBroly wrote:http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47316279&postcount=719

So...528 Gflops for the GPU? I guess. Maybe. That GPU looks...exotic, to put it lightly. So that would be near the high end of expectations, but not the end-all be-all. It still doesn't explain how it works with the CPU, nor why it costs so darn much to make/ship/sell. It apparently has 37mb of edRAM as well, which is a good thing.

Someone on neogaf called it the GameCube of this generation because the on-spec sheets were completely useless to measuring its' power, where some games completely outclassed everything on PS2 and Xbox. It's also a middle finger to all the techies out there wanting to find out how powerful their hardware is.

Maybe with Nintendo's partnerships, assuming they're good games, will result in more than just first parties taking advantage of their hardware this time around.



From what I've been reading the conses is around 300glops with the lowest guess about 176
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby KingBroly » 05 Feb 2013 02:24

It's 176 if you just go by the standard part of the chip. Ignoring everything else is almost impossible, especially considering that 176 is only like 1/4 the chip. And if it were 176, then the games already ported to Wii U would have been A LOT worse considering the supposed weak nature of the CPU and the timeframe developers were given to port games to it (mid last year to late September/mid October) on final hardware.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby ddddd » 05 Feb 2013 05:43

Developers keep saying its a 360 with enough power for a second screen, so yeah, probably around the 300 mark, and the competition will have beyond a teraflop of performance sigh... God, how much I despise you Iwata.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby KingBroly » 05 Feb 2013 08:51

I think it's two issues, the power consumption and the tablet. If it was 50-60w of power, they could've made it a tiny bit cheaper, bigger and had more power.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby CorusFace » 05 Feb 2013 12:18

ddddd wrote:Developers keep saying its a 360 with enough power for a second screen


where did you get that? who said that?
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby bomblord » 05 Feb 2013 13:47

Been reading some of the comments on your thread and have a few of my own to use as you wish.

1. This GPU is custom.
2. If it was based on ATI/AMD or a Radeon-like design, the chip would carry die marks to reflect that. Everybody has to recognize the licensing. It has none. Only Renesas name which is a former unit of NEC.
3. This chip is fabricated in a 40 nm advanced CMOS process at TSMC and is not low tech
4. For reference sake, the Apple A6 is fabricated in a 32 nm CMOS process and is also designed from scratch. It’s manufacturing costs, in volumes of 100k or more, about $26 - $30 a pop. Over 16 months degrade to about $15 each
a. Wii U only represents like 30M units per annum vs iPhone which is more like 100M units per annum. Put things in perspective.
5. This Wii U GPU costs more than that by about $20-$40 bucks each making it a very expensive piece of kit. Combine that with the IBM CPU and the Flash chip all on the same package and this whole thing is closer to $100 a piece when you add it all up
6. The Wii U main processor package is a very impressive piece of hardware when its said and done.

Trust me on this. It may not have water cooling and heat sinks the size of a brownie, but its one slick piece of silicon. eDRAM is not cheap to make. That is why not everybody does it. Cause its so dam expensive


Professional analysis of the GPU
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby Zug Zug » 05 Feb 2013 14:43

bomblord wrote:
Been reading some of the comments on your thread and have a few of my own to use as you wish.

1. This GPU is custom.
2. If it was based on ATI/AMD or a Radeon-like design, the chip would carry die marks to reflect that. Everybody has to recognize the licensing. It has none. Only Renesas name which is a former unit of NEC.
3. This chip is fabricated in a 40 nm advanced CMOS process at TSMC and is not low tech
4. For reference sake, the Apple A6 is fabricated in a 32 nm CMOS process and is also designed from scratch. It’s manufacturing costs, in volumes of 100k or more, about $26 - $30 a pop. Over 16 months degrade to about $15 each
a. Wii U only represents like 30M units per annum vs iPhone which is more like 100M units per annum. Put things in perspective.
5. This Wii U GPU costs more than that by about $20-$40 bucks each making it a very expensive piece of kit. Combine that with the IBM CPU and the Flash chip all on the same package and this whole thing is closer to $100 a piece when you add it all up
6. The Wii U main processor package is a very impressive piece of hardware when its said and done.

Trust me on this. It may not have water cooling and heat sinks the size of a brownie, but its one slick piece of silicon. eDRAM is not cheap to make. That is why not everybody does it. Cause its so dam expensive


Professional analysis of the GPU


Much better than Digital Foundry's flawed and lacking information analysis.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby KingBroly » 05 Feb 2013 14:54

Digital Foundry's article was 100% click bait. Incomplete and journalistic malpractice that didn't cite sources. Whoever wrote that article should be fired immediately.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby Devil_Rising » 05 Feb 2013 16:02

ddddd wrote:Developers keep saying its a 360 with enough power for a second screen, so yeah, probably around the 300 mark, and the competition will have beyond a teraflop of performance sigh... God, how much I despise you Iwata.



A) No one actually understands the hardware anywhere near as well as their "educated guesses" are pretending to.

B) If you're really that upset, then just stop buying Nintendo products. :lol:
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby ddddd » 05 Feb 2013 16:32

CorusFace wrote:
ddddd wrote:Developers keep saying its a 360 with enough power for a second screen


where did you get that? who said that?

Team Ninja, the dev who leaked the entire spec sheet (Arkam from GAF), and not a dev but IdeaMan has been saying this for a long time (in a more positive way though). I didnt expect it to be THAT bad.

Devil_Rising wrote:A) No one actually understands the hardware anywhere near as well as their "educated guesses" are pretending to.

B) If you're really that upset, then just stop buying Nintendo products. :lol:

Well, this confirmation came after I bought it. If Iwata is still onboard by next gen I'll definitely consider skipping it for the actual next gen consoles.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby KingBroly » 05 Feb 2013 16:46

ddddd wrote:Team Ninja


So my question is why should we trust an incompetent developer?

Because again, the spec sheet doesn't really appear to matter at this point, considering how customized it is.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby ddddd » 05 Feb 2013 17:05

KingBroly wrote:
ddddd wrote:Team Ninja


So my question is why should we trust an incompetent developer?

Because again, the spec sheet doesn't really appear to matter at this point, considering how customized it is.

I dont mean to use the spec sheet, the developer who leaked it specifically said wiiu was 1:1 with the 360 and that it had slow ram (further confirmed by teardown)

And who should I trust? Unlike fan favorite ShinEn, TN at least developed for current gen consoles.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby CorusFace » 05 Feb 2013 17:08

ddddd wrote:Well, this confirmation came after I bought it. If Iwata is still onboard by next gen I'll definitely consider skipping it for the actual next gen consoles.


man, you really seem dissatisfied with the console, and it all seems to be based around certain specific tech specs, regardless of what the games look like or play like. plus, we have no idea what the other next gen systems are gonna have under the hood or what their games will even look like!

what's with gamers' recent obsession with tech specs? they aren't the end-all, be-all (which history has proven every freakin' time) and won't be worth jack if the games still suck. what did nintendo or iwata do to offend and upset and violate and "betray" so many people? i really don't understand why the western world constantly wants nintendo to fail so bad. there are much more deserving companies out there.
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Re: Guts of the Wii U: Facts & Rumors

Postby Zug Zug » 05 Feb 2013 17:39

ddddd wrote:
KingBroly wrote:
ddddd wrote:Team Ninja


So my question is why should we trust an incompetent developer?

Because again, the spec sheet doesn't really appear to matter at this point, considering how customized it is.

I dont mean to use the spec sheet, the developer who leaked it specifically said wiiu was 1:1 with the 360 and that it had slow ram (further confirmed by teardown)

And who should I trust? Unlike fan favorite ShinEn, TN at least developed for current gen consoles.


Except it's not 1:1 with the 360. The only part that could be considered that is the CPU.
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