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October 22, 2009 by The News Team
Filed Under: Wii
The original project was slatted [sic] as a Wii / DS combo, but due to the sales of "hardcore" games on the Wii it was cancelled by the publisher. - Jools Watsham, Renegade Kid
I'm not surprised to see that. I'm sure Renegade Kid was involved with smaller publisher, and they just couldn't afford to take a big loss on a Wii game like that. Let's hope the project actually sees the light of day one way or another.
Via N4G
Story Feedback
It was probably going to be s*** anyway, if the developers truly thought that.
Titles are important on the Wii, "Son of the Dragon", should be titled something like:
Games of the Party!
The core will still know it's a core game with a stupid title, but the casuals won't have any idea and pick it up just like they did Carnival Games, Game Party, Game Party 2, and even Big Beach Sports.
Games of the Party!
The core will still know it's a core game with a stupid title, but the casuals won't have any idea and pick it up just like they did Carnival Games, Game Party, Game Party 2, and even Big Beach Sports.
@coffeewithchess
Or Family Fun Waggle Party Carnival: Minigames with Racing: The Fun 4-Player Family Fun Party Waggle Game: For Family Fun!
Or Family Fun Waggle Party Carnival: Minigames with Racing: The Fun 4-Player Family Fun Party Waggle Game: For Family Fun!
@Hongo
EXACTLY! We are almost 3 years into the Wii's life-cycle, and publishers/developers "don't understand" why games don't sell. Nintendo was known as the "kiddie" console with the N64, and that really hasn't changed much with the Wii...just more known as the "family party gamesz console" now.
EXACTLY! We are almost 3 years into the Wii's life-cycle, and publishers/developers "don't understand" why games don't sell. Nintendo was known as the "kiddie" console with the N64, and that really hasn't changed much with the Wii...just more known as the "family party gamesz console" now.
Stereotyping bastards. Can't publishers do anything but follow the latest gold rush?
@coffeewithchess
Why do you presume to know how "casuals" go about purchasing titles? Nobody bothers to learn about the so-called "casuals", or even specify who they are exactly, aside from "not young males". You'd think journalists would have some drive to actually investigate the magical market they keep talking about, but apparently it's more desirable to just perpetuate stereotypes, and project elitist social criticism.
I contend that the games you refer to are in fact big hits with kids, and parents who are buying games for their kids. Wii has a virtual monopoly on kids. But kids aren't some new phenomenon like the "casuals" are made out to be. Kids have been the bread-and-butter of the industry since the NES.
*endrant*
@coffeewithchess
Why do you presume to know how "casuals" go about purchasing titles? Nobody bothers to learn about the so-called "casuals", or even specify who they are exactly, aside from "not young males". You'd think journalists would have some drive to actually investigate the magical market they keep talking about, but apparently it's more desirable to just perpetuate stereotypes, and project elitist social criticism.
I contend that the games you refer to are in fact big hits with kids, and parents who are buying games for their kids. Wii has a virtual monopoly on kids. But kids aren't some new phenomenon like the "casuals" are made out to be. Kids have been the bread-and-butter of the industry since the NES.
*endrant*
o wow, well, i´m not consider myself as a hardcore gamer or a casual gamer, just a guy who likes good games.
in my opinion, the developer wants to make ¨accesible¨hardcore games, triying to do a hybrid of casualhardcore game, doing on rails stuff, so what happened, one is fine, but i don´t want to full my wii games collection of just on rails game, also i don´t to full my DS collection with RPG.
so, developer have to know how sell a game to the audience, i mean, Madworld had a lot of potencial, but 5 hours don´t justify 50 bucks (i buy it anway). High voltage do it well offering a FPS with online game, supporting Wiispeak and stuff like that, i guess gamer prefer that and don´t just point and shoot. Dead space may be a good game (i didn´t had the change to try it) but with Resident Evil in a on rails game too, gamer have to decide one of them.
also the new methods of game distribution made this hard, with Muramasa, i buy and i love it, but some people say ¨why i should paid 50 bucks for a game that looks as a PSN/Xboxlive game¨ and someones who call Super Mario Galaxy 2 a DLC pack of Super Mario Galaxy, so is hard now to gamers appreciate a game on a disc.
i talk to much, so i need to finish, is to drastic to conclude ¨Son of the dragon¨ will not be appreciate if they never show how the game is, i know that Red steel 2 is going to do well, also no more heroes 2 and Monster Hunter 3, because i saw it in action, i know how it works and what they offer, but if i know just the title, how can i be interested?
is just my opinion, sorry for talking to much
in my opinion, the developer wants to make ¨accesible¨hardcore games, triying to do a hybrid of casualhardcore game, doing on rails stuff, so what happened, one is fine, but i don´t want to full my wii games collection of just on rails game, also i don´t to full my DS collection with RPG.
so, developer have to know how sell a game to the audience, i mean, Madworld had a lot of potencial, but 5 hours don´t justify 50 bucks (i buy it anway). High voltage do it well offering a FPS with online game, supporting Wiispeak and stuff like that, i guess gamer prefer that and don´t just point and shoot. Dead space may be a good game (i didn´t had the change to try it) but with Resident Evil in a on rails game too, gamer have to decide one of them.
also the new methods of game distribution made this hard, with Muramasa, i buy and i love it, but some people say ¨why i should paid 50 bucks for a game that looks as a PSN/Xboxlive game¨ and someones who call Super Mario Galaxy 2 a DLC pack of Super Mario Galaxy, so is hard now to gamers appreciate a game on a disc.
i talk to much, so i need to finish, is to drastic to conclude ¨Son of the dragon¨ will not be appreciate if they never show how the game is, i know that Red steel 2 is going to do well, also no more heroes 2 and Monster Hunter 3, because i saw it in action, i know how it works and what they offer, but if i know just the title, how can i be interested?
is just my opinion, sorry for talking to much
Can't really blame them. Hardcore games are a huge gamble on Wii...and most of the time, developers will lose on that gamble.
Real reason:
"We could not afford to make a high budget title on the Wii (despite the low cost to develop on the console) and because market data has shown Wii hardcore users don't settle for B rated material compared to the AAA material on PS3/360/PC, we canceled it. Because were are absolute retards and want to be loathed, we also would like to announce that hardcore titles don't sell on Wii."
"We could not afford to make a high budget title on the Wii (despite the low cost to develop on the console) and because market data has shown Wii hardcore users don't settle for B rated material compared to the AAA material on PS3/360/PC, we canceled it. Because were are absolute retards and want to be loathed, we also would like to announce that hardcore titles don't sell on Wii."
@Tendonin
Casual gamers are people who have a passive interest in gaming. They mainly play simple games like puzzle games and party games, and now, exercise games.
Core gamers are people who grew up playing games. They are into the gaming culture and enjoy playing games with more intricate plots, character development, complex gameplay, etc.
Casual gamers are people who have a passive interest in gaming. They mainly play simple games like puzzle games and party games, and now, exercise games.
Core gamers are people who grew up playing games. They are into the gaming culture and enjoy playing games with more intricate plots, character development, complex gameplay, etc.
@Alkemystical
How are core games a gamble on Nintendo platforms if every single Nintendo platform released prior to the Wii and DS was dominated by core games?
Core games have been essential to Nintendo's success in the past, why would developers not want to continue this with the Wii and DS?
How are core games a gamble on Nintendo platforms if every single Nintendo platform released prior to the Wii and DS was dominated by core games?
Core games have been essential to Nintendo's success in the past, why would developers not want to continue this with the Wii and DS?
meh i really doubt any of their games for any platform will ever sell as much as they hope. It's always the same IP on the top 10 ,
@tendoboy1984
Wouldn't your explanation of "casual gamers" be better phrased as the proliferation of certain game genres? Why does a "core gamer" need to have grown up with gaming, or be interested in games heavily focused on story? If that were the case, RPGs would be more popular than FPSs in America.
My point is that these terms are very much subjective. Your explanation is good as far as explaining the general sentiments of the "gaming culture", but it still necessarily relies on stereotyping.
@Alkemystical
A gamble you say? The cost of development is much lower than on the HD twins, and even if there are less people interested, there's also less competition to worry about, and an opportunity to start something big, if only developers could put in the some real effort (High Voltage did...but sadly, their game was mediocre). We just don't hear about the HD games that have been relative flops (like Bionic Commando).
Again, when this guy refers to "hardcore" titles, I don't know if he just means "mature" titles, or something else.
Wouldn't your explanation of "casual gamers" be better phrased as the proliferation of certain game genres? Why does a "core gamer" need to have grown up with gaming, or be interested in games heavily focused on story? If that were the case, RPGs would be more popular than FPSs in America.
My point is that these terms are very much subjective. Your explanation is good as far as explaining the general sentiments of the "gaming culture", but it still necessarily relies on stereotyping.
@Alkemystical
A gamble you say? The cost of development is much lower than on the HD twins, and even if there are less people interested, there's also less competition to worry about, and an opportunity to start something big, if only developers could put in the some real effort (High Voltage did...but sadly, their game was mediocre). We just don't hear about the HD games that have been relative flops (like Bionic Commando).
Again, when this guy refers to "hardcore" titles, I don't know if he just means "mature" titles, or something else.
@Tendonin
I presume because of sales for Carnival Games, Game Party, Game Party 2, EA Sports Active, Deca Sports...
compared to, MadWorld, The Conduit, No More Heroes.
I presume because of sales for Carnival Games, Game Party, Game Party 2, EA Sports Active, Deca Sports...
compared to, MadWorld, The Conduit, No More Heroes.
@Inneverate
Ummm... the developer said their PUBLISHER canceled it. The developer is Renegade Kid, the Renegade Kid.... I don't get you sometimes.
@coffeewithchess
God your superiority sometimes is about as enjoyable as rubbing salt in my eyes.
@coffeewithchess
I presume because of the sales of Smash Bros Brawl, Mario Kart Wii, Link's Crossbow Training, Super Mario Galaxy, Twilight Princess, Super Paper Mario, Lego Star Wars....
Ummm... the developer said their PUBLISHER canceled it. The developer is Renegade Kid, the Renegade Kid.... I don't get you sometimes.
@coffeewithchess
God your superiority sometimes is about as enjoyable as rubbing salt in my eyes.
@coffeewithchess
I presume because of the sales of Smash Bros Brawl, Mario Kart Wii, Link's Crossbow Training, Super Mario Galaxy, Twilight Princess, Super Paper Mario, Lego Star Wars....
@Inneverate
Publishers, not the developers. Completely different.
And no, it's because core games have the smallest audience on Wii and all the core games have been selling like s***.
Publishers, not the developers. Completely different.
And no, it's because core games have the smallest audience on Wii and all the core games have been selling like s***.
@MoldyClay
The number of Wii games that have sold enough to be profitable: 201.
Million Seller Core Games:
Sonic Unleashed
Pro Evolution Soccer 2008
Lego Batman: The Videogame
The House of the Dead 2 & 3 Return
Red Steel
Call of Duty 3
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 09 All-Play
Lego Indiana Jones: The Original Adventures
Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz
Call of Duty: World at War
Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles
Shaun White Snowboarding: Road Trip
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 08
Pokémon Battle Revolution
Star Wars: The Force Unleashed
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition
Mario Strikers Charged
Sonic and the Secret Rings
LEGO Star Wars: The Complete Saga
Super Paper Mario
Guitar Hero: World Tour
Link's Crossbow Training
Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
Super Mario Galaxy
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Mario Kart Wii
The number of Wii games that have sold enough to be profitable: 201.
Million Seller Core Games:
Sonic Unleashed
Pro Evolution Soccer 2008
Lego Batman: The Videogame
The House of the Dead 2 & 3 Return
Red Steel
Call of Duty 3
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 09 All-Play
Lego Indiana Jones: The Original Adventures
Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz
Call of Duty: World at War
Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles
Shaun White Snowboarding: Road Trip
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 08
Pokémon Battle Revolution
Star Wars: The Force Unleashed
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition
Mario Strikers Charged
Sonic and the Secret Rings
LEGO Star Wars: The Complete Saga
Super Paper Mario
Guitar Hero: World Tour
Link's Crossbow Training
Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
Super Mario Galaxy
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Mario Kart Wii
Like I said before, the core Wii gamers are playing with fire here and now it looks like they're getting burned. You can only ignore so many high profile 3rd Party hardcore games, before they finally realize that its just not worth the effort to bring anymore of them to the Wii. People can make up any excuse they want, as to why they didn't buy this game, or that game for the Wii.
But when the all the hardcore gamers on the Wii don't buy any of them in mass amounts, than you know there's a bigger problem here. Certain games are going to fail no matter what, but not this many. Not all of them for this entire year should of failed, because the Wii's install base is just too big, for this many hardcore games to be failing.
But when the all the hardcore gamers on the Wii don't buy any of them in mass amounts, than you know there's a bigger problem here. Certain games are going to fail no matter what, but not this many. Not all of them for this entire year should of failed, because the Wii's install base is just too big, for this many hardcore games to be failing.
@WiiLikeSportz
All but one of those games is published by NINTENDO! If you check VG Chartz, the top 20 best selling games are either by Nintendo, have Nintendo characters in it (Mario and Sonic, published by Sega), a minigame party game, or is something like Guitar Hero (which sells well on all platforms).
No one like losing money. That's why the Wii doesn't get a port or version of every single game released: Because they sell like crap!
Even the big list of million sellers you listed, a good chunk of those games are by Nintendo.
All but one of those games is published by NINTENDO! If you check VG Chartz, the top 20 best selling games are either by Nintendo, have Nintendo characters in it (Mario and Sonic, published by Sega), a minigame party game, or is something like Guitar Hero (which sells well on all platforms).
No one like losing money. That's why the Wii doesn't get a port or version of every single game released: Because they sell like crap!
Even the big list of million sellers you listed, a good chunk of those games are by Nintendo.
@coffeewithchess
Madworld didn't do terribly for a game by the succesor to Clover Studios, No More Heroes was probably Suda 51's most successful game ever, and The Conduit just failed to deliver, and was too generic to avoid competing with more experienced developers. Anyway, I wasn't talking about those games. I was talking about the stereotyping of "casual gamers", since it's a pretty damn wide net to cast over what in all likelyhood is just games selling to a massive child audience. I never thought I'd miss the "kiddie" label from the GCN days.
Anyway, if y'all haven't noticed, third-party support has only been improving over the past year. It's just that as the console with the lowest development costs, Wii is used for most of the niche games that tend to sell less. I believe there's an interview with one of the creators of Muramasa that exemplifies that point.
Madworld didn't do terribly for a game by the succesor to Clover Studios, No More Heroes was probably Suda 51's most successful game ever, and The Conduit just failed to deliver, and was too generic to avoid competing with more experienced developers. Anyway, I wasn't talking about those games. I was talking about the stereotyping of "casual gamers", since it's a pretty damn wide net to cast over what in all likelyhood is just games selling to a massive child audience. I never thought I'd miss the "kiddie" label from the GCN days.
Anyway, if y'all haven't noticed, third-party support has only been improving over the past year. It's just that as the console with the lowest development costs, Wii is used for most of the niche games that tend to sell less. I believe there's an interview with one of the creators of Muramasa that exemplifies that point.
@WiiLikeSportz
I'm not being superior. I'm not looking down on anything. Heck, I own ALL 3 Rayman Raving Rabbids games, and Wii Fit!
I'm just saying, if you want success, look at successful people, study them.
I would assume the same with games on a system that is showing time and again, certain games struggle to sell.
You listing, "I presume because of the sales of Smash Bros Brawl, Mario Kart Wii, Link's Crossbow Training, Super Mario Galaxy, Twilight Princess, Super Paper Mario, Lego Star Wars...." does show NINTENDO titles and a LEGO and STAR WARS title sold extremely well on the Wii.
@MrBubbles
I agree a lot with your statement. If 3rd parties game Wii games the equivalent development time/budget of games on the PS3/360, I think then you could compare games like apples to apples, but that really hasn't happened.
I'm not being superior. I'm not looking down on anything. Heck, I own ALL 3 Rayman Raving Rabbids games, and Wii Fit!
I'm just saying, if you want success, look at successful people, study them.
I would assume the same with games on a system that is showing time and again, certain games struggle to sell.
You listing, "I presume because of the sales of Smash Bros Brawl, Mario Kart Wii, Link's Crossbow Training, Super Mario Galaxy, Twilight Princess, Super Paper Mario, Lego Star Wars...." does show NINTENDO titles and a LEGO and STAR WARS title sold extremely well on the Wii.
@MrBubbles
I agree a lot with your statement. If 3rd parties game Wii games the equivalent development time/budget of games on the PS3/360, I think then you could compare games like apples to apples, but that really hasn't happened.
@PEICanada7
LOOOOOLLLLLLLL
Do you want me to start a list of amazing Ps2 games that didn't sell? Do you know how big the Ps2 is? Do you know the Ps2 is still leading the market?
Holy christ, the bullshit you spew here is immense.
I'm sorry if I have better taste and want to be treated like a first rate customer like Ps3/360 owners are.
LOOOOOLLLLLLLL
Do you want me to start a list of amazing Ps2 games that didn't sell? Do you know how big the Ps2 is? Do you know the Ps2 is still leading the market?
Holy christ, the bullshit you spew here is immense.
I'm sorry if I have better taste and want to be treated like a first rate customer like Ps3/360 owners are.
"How did -all- of them this year fail?"
Well what 3rd Party hardcore Wii game sold over a million this year? I can't think of any of them, can you? HOTD: Overkill didn't, MadWorld didn't, Conduit didn't, Little Kings Story didn't, Muramasa didn't. Hell even Nintendo's own Punch-Out didn't. So I'm just saying all these hardcore gamers cry foul, but where the hell are they? Why aren't they buying more hardcore Wii games on a mass scale?
"Do you want me to start a list of amazing Ps2 games that didn't sell?"
We're not taking about the PS2 here. There was a whole hell of a lot more 3rd Party success story's on the PS2, than there is on the Wii right now!
Well what 3rd Party hardcore Wii game sold over a million this year? I can't think of any of them, can you? HOTD: Overkill didn't, MadWorld didn't, Conduit didn't, Little Kings Story didn't, Muramasa didn't. Hell even Nintendo's own Punch-Out didn't. So I'm just saying all these hardcore gamers cry foul, but where the hell are they? Why aren't they buying more hardcore Wii games on a mass scale?
"Do you want me to start a list of amazing Ps2 games that didn't sell?"
We're not taking about the PS2 here. There was a whole hell of a lot more 3rd Party success story's on the PS2, than there is on the Wii right now!
@PEICanada7
Well, first off, a million isn't even the break-even point on a hd system game. 250,000 is the 'profit chu-ching' level of sales on a Wii game, so there's that. Also, Tiger Woods.
@coffeewithchess
I smell what you're cookin', brotha. I listed those to show that the top 10-15 titles consisted mostly of non-casual games, however.
Well, first off, a million isn't even the break-even point on a hd system game. 250,000 is the 'profit chu-ching' level of sales on a Wii game, so there's that. Also, Tiger Woods.
@coffeewithchess
I smell what you're cookin', brotha. I listed those to show that the top 10-15 titles consisted mostly of non-casual games, however.
@Tendonin
I use the term casual gamer/casual game interchangeably. Casual games are made to attract people who share a passive interest in gaming (the casual gamers).
Core games are made for people who want more substance. Not just story, but something that is a bit more challenging and has actual progression and some sort of narrative.
I use the term casual gamer/casual game interchangeably. Casual games are made to attract people who share a passive interest in gaming (the casual gamers).
Core games are made for people who want more substance. Not just story, but something that is a bit more challenging and has actual progression and some sort of narrative.
"Well, first off, a million isn't even the break-even point on a hd system game. 250,000 is the 'profit chu-ching' level of sales on a Wii game, so there's that. Also, Tiger Woods."
I'm not talking about money, I don't care if they make a profit, or not. Its about mass amounts of people not buying Wii games. That's a fact, not a opinion. It has nothing to do with the Wii being good, or having good games, we know it does. No one is disputing that! Its about poor sales of games, and I don't how anyone can argue that fact right now.
Oh by the way, Tiger Woods is nowhere near a million seller on the Wii and since when it Tiger Woods considered a hardcore game?
I'm not talking about money, I don't care if they make a profit, or not. Its about mass amounts of people not buying Wii games. That's a fact, not a opinion. It has nothing to do with the Wii being good, or having good games, we know it does. No one is disputing that! Its about poor sales of games, and I don't how anyone can argue that fact right now.
Oh by the way, Tiger Woods is nowhere near a million seller on the Wii and since when it Tiger Woods considered a hardcore game?
@PEICanada7
We're not taking about the PS2 here. There was a whole hell of a lot more 3rd Party success story's on the PS2, than there is on the Wii right now!
YES, IT IS. SILLY! SILLY, SILLY, SILLY!
The Playstation 2 had it's fair share of games that didn't sell well enough DESPITE the huge userbase, the Ps2 was probably around 100million units by the time Okami came out...and do you know what happened? It became a sleeper hit on the Ps2.
It is VERY relevant for you to look at the Ps2 and how it had it's fair share of sad stories about games that didn't do well on the market despite the amazing userbase.
Granted, the Ps2 never had the issues the Wii is having.
Specifically games built ground up for the Wii failing, but off the top of my head, Devil May Cry came out of nowhere and established itself as a franchise on the Ps2.
Can you name the Devil May Cry of the Wii? Maybe No More Heroes, just barely.
We're not taking about the PS2 here. There was a whole hell of a lot more 3rd Party success story's on the PS2, than there is on the Wii right now!
YES, IT IS. SILLY! SILLY, SILLY, SILLY!
The Playstation 2 had it's fair share of games that didn't sell well enough DESPITE the huge userbase, the Ps2 was probably around 100million units by the time Okami came out...and do you know what happened? It became a sleeper hit on the Ps2.
It is VERY relevant for you to look at the Ps2 and how it had it's fair share of sad stories about games that didn't do well on the market despite the amazing userbase.
Granted, the Ps2 never had the issues the Wii is having.
Specifically games built ground up for the Wii failing, but off the top of my head, Devil May Cry came out of nowhere and established itself as a franchise on the Ps2.
Can you name the Devil May Cry of the Wii? Maybe No More Heroes, just barely.
@Tendonin
Ah, but RPGs are the most popular genre in the world.
FPS games are mainly popular in America, and that is because of games like Halo. Halo popularized FPS games, making them mainstream in the general public's eye. Yes, I know that is a bad example, but it is true. Before Halo came along, FPS games were a niche genre, played mainly by PC gamers.
And Halo is popular for more than it's gameplay. It is popular for it's character development, setting, universe, mythology, etc.
Ah, but RPGs are the most popular genre in the world.
FPS games are mainly popular in America, and that is because of games like Halo. Halo popularized FPS games, making them mainstream in the general public's eye. Yes, I know that is a bad example, but it is true. Before Halo came along, FPS games were a niche genre, played mainly by PC gamers.
And Halo is popular for more than it's gameplay. It is popular for it's character development, setting, universe, mythology, etc.
@MrBubbles
Is the PS2 still worth getting ($99 new)? Or should I just save my money and get a newer system?
Is the PS2 still worth getting ($99 new)? Or should I just save my money and get a newer system?
@PEICanada7
I wouldn't want to spend hours playing realistic golf. I guess you are in charge of what is what. I bet you would say Madden was hardcore but I guess not a different sport by the same dev. Sorry.
I blame a lot of freaks who aren't willing to spend money on games they act interested in for a year for why games don't sell. If you think a bunch of games that just barely made their money back if at all on the other systems are doing better because more people bought them, then fine.
I guess we all have different ideas of what defines 'success.' I just get mad at all the people who act like they want a game for a year and then go all silent.
God Hand sold a FRACTION of what Mad World sold, but nobody said the PS2 was causing the doom of the game. Mad World has sold over 300,000 copies, easily making money. Overkill sold almost half a million. Making a lot of money. But no, they are failures: or are at least considered so by people who don't actually even care.
I just feel like lots of us go out of our way to buy every game we think looks cool and we really like them and then go out of our way again to let people know how great they are, and then people who don't really care about the games are the ones talking about 'that game failed, and the wii is a wasteland' blah blah blah. If you don't care, don't try to make us feel even worse that the people who make great games for the Wii often get crapped on. Go do something else.
It's like 'ha ha you got fired. Ha ha shoulda kept your job, oh wait you got fired!'
Just lay off and go do something else.
I wouldn't want to spend hours playing realistic golf. I guess you are in charge of what is what. I bet you would say Madden was hardcore but I guess not a different sport by the same dev. Sorry.
I blame a lot of freaks who aren't willing to spend money on games they act interested in for a year for why games don't sell. If you think a bunch of games that just barely made their money back if at all on the other systems are doing better because more people bought them, then fine.
I guess we all have different ideas of what defines 'success.' I just get mad at all the people who act like they want a game for a year and then go all silent.
God Hand sold a FRACTION of what Mad World sold, but nobody said the PS2 was causing the doom of the game. Mad World has sold over 300,000 copies, easily making money. Overkill sold almost half a million. Making a lot of money. But no, they are failures: or are at least considered so by people who don't actually even care.
I just feel like lots of us go out of our way to buy every game we think looks cool and we really like them and then go out of our way again to let people know how great they are, and then people who don't really care about the games are the ones talking about 'that game failed, and the wii is a wasteland' blah blah blah. If you don't care, don't try to make us feel even worse that the people who make great games for the Wii often get crapped on. Go do something else.
It's like 'ha ha you got fired. Ha ha shoulda kept your job, oh wait you got fired!'
Just lay off and go do something else.
@tendoboy1984
I think it beats any current gen system (portables not included), and it is not even my favorite console from last gen.
Get it.
I think it beats any current gen system (portables not included), and it is not even my favorite console from last gen.
Get it.
"Granted, the Ps2 never had the issues the Wii is having."
Exactly that's what I am saying, the PS2 was considered a hardcore gamers console that developers wanted to develop for. Where as the Wii is just seen as some "casual family friendly toy" right now and lets face it. The facts tend to support that claim as being true.
Like I said before, name one 3rd party hardcore million seller on the Wii from this year? I looked it up and there is none. Sure a game doesn't have to be a million seller to be profitable, but to a publisher they sure as hell want their games to be million sellers, and isn't that what this post is about? Publisher canceling games due to poor hardcore Wii sales.
"I wouldn't want to spend hours playing realistic golf. I guess you are in charge of what is what. I bet you would say Madden was hardcore but I guess not a different sport by the same dev. Sorry."
LOL I'm Canadian, so I never play Madden. I hate football, but its not up to me to determine what's hardcore, and what's not. You said Tiger Woods was a million seller and its not. I don't see what else there is to argue about that. I really couldn't care less about either of those games to be honest. I'm not trying to crap on the Wii, because I think its a great system, but the facts are still the facts!
Exactly that's what I am saying, the PS2 was considered a hardcore gamers console that developers wanted to develop for. Where as the Wii is just seen as some "casual family friendly toy" right now and lets face it. The facts tend to support that claim as being true.
Like I said before, name one 3rd party hardcore million seller on the Wii from this year? I looked it up and there is none. Sure a game doesn't have to be a million seller to be profitable, but to a publisher they sure as hell want their games to be million sellers, and isn't that what this post is about? Publisher canceling games due to poor hardcore Wii sales.
"I wouldn't want to spend hours playing realistic golf. I guess you are in charge of what is what. I bet you would say Madden was hardcore but I guess not a different sport by the same dev. Sorry."
LOL I'm Canadian, so I never play Madden. I hate football, but its not up to me to determine what's hardcore, and what's not. You said Tiger Woods was a million seller and its not. I don't see what else there is to argue about that. I really couldn't care less about either of those games to be honest. I'm not trying to crap on the Wii, because I think its a great system, but the facts are still the facts!
That excuse is BS this game was canned before MadWorld and The Conduit even came out.
@tendoboy1984
"Casual gamers are people who have a passive interest in gaming"
No, "Casual gamer" is just something the Industry made up to explain away the success of the Wii, and to belittle the expanded audience who are immune to their Gaming "culture" propaganda. Casual is just a nice way for people to say Retarded. The fact you said something this stupid just proves how little you and most other people know about them.
@coffeewithchess
@MoldyClay
You both forgot to mention that said core titles were games no one wanted, or have very limited appeal. It's not that there isn't a core market on the Wii (which is f*** stupid for any of you to say, seeing as Nintendo core titles still sell), it's that the core market doesn't want inferior games. Try to threaten 360 and PS3 owners with bad underwhelming games, and see if you get a better response (you won't)
Until we get some actual support, you're just being ignorant. You have no sales data to back your claims up, because they don't exist yet.
@PEICanada7
"You can only ignore so many high profile 3rd Party hardcore games"
High profile "hardcore" games? Don't make me laugh, games like Madworld and Muramasa would be considered B rate games on the 360 or PS3, because those systems have actual good 3rd party support. What's happening are 3 parties are getting away with labeling Ninja Blade as Ninja Gaiden on the Wii, and you people eat this s*** up.
Sometimes, I wonder if majority of you are trolling or really are this delusional.
@MrBubbles
"Granted, the Ps2 never had the issues the Wii is having."
The PS2 actually had the support of the 3rd party developers. What Wii gets are mediocre B rate games from 3rd parties, on top of unrealistic expectations of said games selling millions when they wouldn't have done any better on the PS2.
Can we stop blaming the gamers, and instead blame the real culprits, the developers and the games themselves?
"Casual gamers are people who have a passive interest in gaming"
No, "Casual gamer" is just something the Industry made up to explain away the success of the Wii, and to belittle the expanded audience who are immune to their Gaming "culture" propaganda. Casual is just a nice way for people to say Retarded. The fact you said something this stupid just proves how little you and most other people know about them.
@coffeewithchess
@MoldyClay
You both forgot to mention that said core titles were games no one wanted, or have very limited appeal. It's not that there isn't a core market on the Wii (which is f*** stupid for any of you to say, seeing as Nintendo core titles still sell), it's that the core market doesn't want inferior games. Try to threaten 360 and PS3 owners with bad underwhelming games, and see if you get a better response (you won't)
Until we get some actual support, you're just being ignorant. You have no sales data to back your claims up, because they don't exist yet.
@PEICanada7
"You can only ignore so many high profile 3rd Party hardcore games"
High profile "hardcore" games? Don't make me laugh, games like Madworld and Muramasa would be considered B rate games on the 360 or PS3, because those systems have actual good 3rd party support. What's happening are 3 parties are getting away with labeling Ninja Blade as Ninja Gaiden on the Wii, and you people eat this s*** up.
Sometimes, I wonder if majority of you are trolling or really are this delusional.
@MrBubbles
"Granted, the Ps2 never had the issues the Wii is having."
The PS2 actually had the support of the 3rd party developers. What Wii gets are mediocre B rate games from 3rd parties, on top of unrealistic expectations of said games selling millions when they wouldn't have done any better on the PS2.
Can we stop blaming the gamers, and instead blame the real culprits, the developers and the games themselves?
I love Innervate. God it's good to see at least one intelligent person around here.
"Sometimes, I wonder if majority of you are trolling or really are this delusional."
Oh believe it. They really are delusional. Too many gamers, especially ones on this site, are trapped in this lie that there somehow a "casual/hardcore" distinction, among other things.
Wake up people! You're getting a high level of mediocrity/crap from third parties and they're calling you stupid for not gobbling it up.
Here, you want to boil it down to its lowest common denominator?
Why the hell was Resident Evil 5 made the way it was instead of making it more like Resident Evil 4 and putting it on the Wii with the updated controls of Resident Evil 4 Wii edition?
"Hardware limitations"? Bullshit. Metroid Prime 3 had absolutely no problems being the game it was. Third parties are copping out, plain and simple.
Name all of the AAA third party titles on the 360 or PS3 and then cite how many of those were published on the Wii (and not a full 2 years later like Modern Warfare).
"@WiiLikeSportz
All but one of those games is published by NINTENDO!"
Are you really that dumb Hongo? The following games on his list weren't published by Nintendo:
Sonic Unleashed
Pro Evolution Soccer 2008
Lego Batman: The Videogame
The House of the Dead 2 & 3 Return
Red Steel
Call of Duty 3
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 09 All-Play
Lego Indiana Jones: The Original Adventures
Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz
Call of Duty: World at War
Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles
Shaun White Snowboarding: Road Trip
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 08
Star Wars: The Force Unleashed
Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition
Sonic and the Secret Rings
LEGO Star Wars: The Complete Saga
Guitar Hero: World Tour
Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock
"Sometimes, I wonder if majority of you are trolling or really are this delusional."
Oh believe it. They really are delusional. Too many gamers, especially ones on this site, are trapped in this lie that there somehow a "casual/hardcore" distinction, among other things.
Wake up people! You're getting a high level of mediocrity/crap from third parties and they're calling you stupid for not gobbling it up.
Here, you want to boil it down to its lowest common denominator?
Why the hell was Resident Evil 5 made the way it was instead of making it more like Resident Evil 4 and putting it on the Wii with the updated controls of Resident Evil 4 Wii edition?
"Hardware limitations"? Bullshit. Metroid Prime 3 had absolutely no problems being the game it was. Third parties are copping out, plain and simple.
Name all of the AAA third party titles on the 360 or PS3 and then cite how many of those were published on the Wii (and not a full 2 years later like Modern Warfare).
"@WiiLikeSportz
All but one of those games is published by NINTENDO!"
Are you really that dumb Hongo? The following games on his list weren't published by Nintendo:
Sonic Unleashed
Pro Evolution Soccer 2008
Lego Batman: The Videogame
The House of the Dead 2 & 3 Return
Red Steel
Call of Duty 3
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 09 All-Play
Lego Indiana Jones: The Original Adventures
Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz
Call of Duty: World at War
Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles
Shaun White Snowboarding: Road Trip
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 08
Star Wars: The Force Unleashed
Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition
Sonic and the Secret Rings
LEGO Star Wars: The Complete Saga
Guitar Hero: World Tour
Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock
@DoubleDragon
No. I was replying to his first post that had a list of games and my post came AFTER his second. Most of those games sell well on other consoles as well, so it's not shocking. Sports games, Call of Duty, Guitar Hero, Resident Evil, etc. A game with STAR WARS or LEGO in the title, Sonic has always done well on Nintendo platforms (shocker), and a couple of launch title games.
You really think 3rd parties are that stupid? They know what sells (family friendly party games/"fitness" games) and what doesn't (Mad World, Zack and Wiki, etc.) That's why the Wii doesn't get every single game the other platforms do. No one likes losing money, so they stick to what IS gobbled up.
That's SMART business. You honestly think these companies are going to go out of their way to please someone like you? Hell no. They can feed you all the PR "We will push these specific games on Wii" and make you feel snug and secure crap they want, but in the end, they don't want to lose money. If they put stuff out and it does bad in sales, they move on to greener pasture. That's Business 101.
3rd parties did not create the Wii's stigma alone. Nintendo had a hand in it as well. All of the games you listed (excluding Red Steel) are ESTABLISHED IP's, so of course they will sell well.
No. I was replying to his first post that had a list of games and my post came AFTER his second. Most of those games sell well on other consoles as well, so it's not shocking. Sports games, Call of Duty, Guitar Hero, Resident Evil, etc. A game with STAR WARS or LEGO in the title, Sonic has always done well on Nintendo platforms (shocker), and a couple of launch title games.
You really think 3rd parties are that stupid? They know what sells (family friendly party games/"fitness" games) and what doesn't (Mad World, Zack and Wiki, etc.) That's why the Wii doesn't get every single game the other platforms do. No one likes losing money, so they stick to what IS gobbled up.
That's SMART business. You honestly think these companies are going to go out of their way to please someone like you? Hell no. They can feed you all the PR "We will push these specific games on Wii" and make you feel snug and secure crap they want, but in the end, they don't want to lose money. If they put stuff out and it does bad in sales, they move on to greener pasture. That's Business 101.
3rd parties did not create the Wii's stigma alone. Nintendo had a hand in it as well. All of the games you listed (excluding Red Steel) are ESTABLISHED IP's, so of course they will sell well.
"You really think 3rd parties are that stupid?"
That's a trick question, but yes, by and large, many third parties are incredibly stupid because they have absolutely no understanding of the expanded audience and only know how to craft games for the core audience.
If they "know what sells" so well, then why the hell do these companies express complete bewilderment each time one of their games DOESN'T sell? Could it be because they don't know what sells? Nah, that can't be it....
So let me get this straight. I'm going to try really hard here to digest what you just said.
Third parties should stick to "ESTABLISHED IP'S" (by the way you don't need the apostrophe - it doesn't make the initials plural, it makes them possessive) because it's safe and "SMART business." OK. I'll go with that.
So then why are established IPs like Call of Duty: Modern Warfare not being ported at the same time as the other versions? Why isn't Resident Evil 5 on the Wii when a mere upgraded port of Resident Evil 4 is selling over a million copies?
That's not smart business, that's utter insanity.
Third parties have to be insane to think that Ninja Gaiden, Resident Evil, or any other established series can't sell on the Wii.
That's a trick question, but yes, by and large, many third parties are incredibly stupid because they have absolutely no understanding of the expanded audience and only know how to craft games for the core audience.
If they "know what sells" so well, then why the hell do these companies express complete bewilderment each time one of their games DOESN'T sell? Could it be because they don't know what sells? Nah, that can't be it....
So let me get this straight. I'm going to try really hard here to digest what you just said.
Third parties should stick to "ESTABLISHED IP'S" (by the way you don't need the apostrophe - it doesn't make the initials plural, it makes them possessive) because it's safe and "SMART business." OK. I'll go with that.
So then why are established IPs like Call of Duty: Modern Warfare not being ported at the same time as the other versions? Why isn't Resident Evil 5 on the Wii when a mere upgraded port of Resident Evil 4 is selling over a million copies?
That's not smart business, that's utter insanity.
Third parties have to be insane to think that Ninja Gaiden, Resident Evil, or any other established series can't sell on the Wii.
@Inneverate
@DoubleDragon
I'm basically on your side, guys. But a little constructive criticism; try to tone down the abrasiveness of your tone, insulting others, etc. You can make the same, very legitimate points without that extra baggage, and you can be pretty sure people will be more receptive.
This is an interesting comments section.
@DoubleDragon
I'm basically on your side, guys. But a little constructive criticism; try to tone down the abrasiveness of your tone, insulting others, etc. You can make the same, very legitimate points without that extra baggage, and you can be pretty sure people will be more receptive.
This is an interesting comments section.
@DoubleDragon
No, they should not stick to them all the time. However, when they DO introduce something new, especially on Wii, it usually fails. It could have failed on any platform, but new IPs seem to fail a lot more on the Wii.
While yes games like CoD: Modern Warfare and RE5 would do great on the Wii, the games are also online heavy. Almost every game released on PS3/360/PC have online modes or functions. Maybe one out of every 10+ Wii titles will have online (and that's usually for something lackluster like leader boards). I think most developers acknowledge that NWC is not a great online service at all (heck, even Nintendo, not all of their games have basic NWC support either). That is why it never sees that many online heavy games, usually something simple like "DLC" on the disc or, like I said earlier, leader boards.
The Wii is what it is. Developers can only push out so many "hardcore" games that get ignored don't sell well at all on the Wii, but they are not getting what they want by doing so. So that's why a majority of them move on or push out more family and kid friendly party games and animals games ending with Z. Because those (somehow) DO sell.
Believe me, I wish the Wii got a lot of games that it simply doesn't as well, but I have learned to except the fact that the console is what it is and sells what it sells. That's why I got a PS3 last December. Thats why I got a PS2 back in 2004 after having a GameCube since launch. I'm not the type who is going to sit and wait patiently for this game or that game to come to a platform when in reality, the odds are very slim. I'm not going to wait around when I can go ahead and play the said game NOW.
Why so many people act like it's a crime to buy stuff outside of hardware made by Nintendo is a crime or taboo is beyond me. All systems have pros and cons. None of them are "bad". None of them are perfect. HD visuals are not "bad" (if a better picture for ANYTHING is bad, please tell me how). Better hardware is not bad. I fail to see why.
When the question comes up, most people want media player capabilities AND HD on Nintendo hardware, yet spew "The 360 and PS3 are not game consoles. They are computers. They play movies and music." or "HD sucks. Anyone who buys the PS3 or 360 are graphic whores. The PS3 and 360 have no games. People don't buy them for games."
Talk about either a fast change of heart or being totally hypocritical. It's like Sony or Microsoft murdered your family and kicked your puppy walking out the door with some people on here.
No, they should not stick to them all the time. However, when they DO introduce something new, especially on Wii, it usually fails. It could have failed on any platform, but new IPs seem to fail a lot more on the Wii.
While yes games like CoD: Modern Warfare and RE5 would do great on the Wii, the games are also online heavy. Almost every game released on PS3/360/PC have online modes or functions. Maybe one out of every 10+ Wii titles will have online (and that's usually for something lackluster like leader boards). I think most developers acknowledge that NWC is not a great online service at all (heck, even Nintendo, not all of their games have basic NWC support either). That is why it never sees that many online heavy games, usually something simple like "DLC" on the disc or, like I said earlier, leader boards.
The Wii is what it is. Developers can only push out so many "hardcore" games that get ignored don't sell well at all on the Wii, but they are not getting what they want by doing so. So that's why a majority of them move on or push out more family and kid friendly party games and animals games ending with Z. Because those (somehow) DO sell.
Believe me, I wish the Wii got a lot of games that it simply doesn't as well, but I have learned to except the fact that the console is what it is and sells what it sells. That's why I got a PS3 last December. Thats why I got a PS2 back in 2004 after having a GameCube since launch. I'm not the type who is going to sit and wait patiently for this game or that game to come to a platform when in reality, the odds are very slim. I'm not going to wait around when I can go ahead and play the said game NOW.
Why so many people act like it's a crime to buy stuff outside of hardware made by Nintendo is a crime or taboo is beyond me. All systems have pros and cons. None of them are "bad". None of them are perfect. HD visuals are not "bad" (if a better picture for ANYTHING is bad, please tell me how). Better hardware is not bad. I fail to see why.
When the question comes up, most people want media player capabilities AND HD on Nintendo hardware, yet spew "The 360 and PS3 are not game consoles. They are computers. They play movies and music." or "HD sucks. Anyone who buys the PS3 or 360 are graphic whores. The PS3 and 360 have no games. People don't buy them for games."
Talk about either a fast change of heart or being totally hypocritical. It's like Sony or Microsoft murdered your family and kicked your puppy walking out the door with some people on here.
@Inneverate
What's wrong with a B? A B is actually a good score. 360/PS3 do have their share of B rate games. But seriously, a B rated game or a B in anything is pretty decent in my eyes.
@DoubleDragon
"Hardware limitations"? Bullshit. Metroid Prime 3 had absolutely no problems being the game it was. Third parties are copping out, plain and simple."
Nintendo knows their system better than third party developers who make games for every console. What I'm saying is, Nintendo has built their Wii engine as they built the Wii. They know it better. Developers for third parties obviously didn't make the Wii so they don't have the best of an engine. Now I know Retro made Prime 3, but they are second party, with help from Nintendo.
"Wake up people! You're getting a high level of mediocrity/crap from third parties and they're calling you stupid for not gobbling it up."
What games are you calling mediocre/crap? Which third party games? If you're talking about party games, well then no s*** sherlock. Most of us here already knew they suck...
Just cool down dude. Don't buy the games you think are mediocre/crap. Don't even acknowledge them. Or even thrid party developers. Play the AAA games on PS3/360. Just take a chill pill.
What's wrong with a B? A B is actually a good score. 360/PS3 do have their share of B rate games. But seriously, a B rated game or a B in anything is pretty decent in my eyes.
@DoubleDragon
"Hardware limitations"? Bullshit. Metroid Prime 3 had absolutely no problems being the game it was. Third parties are copping out, plain and simple."
Nintendo knows their system better than third party developers who make games for every console. What I'm saying is, Nintendo has built their Wii engine as they built the Wii. They know it better. Developers for third parties obviously didn't make the Wii so they don't have the best of an engine. Now I know Retro made Prime 3, but they are second party, with help from Nintendo.
"Wake up people! You're getting a high level of mediocrity/crap from third parties and they're calling you stupid for not gobbling it up."
What games are you calling mediocre/crap? Which third party games? If you're talking about party games, well then no s*** sherlock. Most of us here already knew they suck...
Just cool down dude. Don't buy the games you think are mediocre/crap. Don't even acknowledge them. Or even thrid party developers. Play the AAA games on PS3/360. Just take a chill pill.
@Inneverate
Casual gaming was not created because of the Wii and DS. Casual games have existed long before the Wii was released.
Nintendo didn't invent the casual gaming "genre".
Most online Flash games are considered casual. The early arcade games from the 1970's and 1980's are casual.
The entire videogame industry was labeled as a fad at one point, before the NES came out and made gaming mainstream. Then the PS1 was released and pushed gaming into the forefront of pop-culture.
Casual gaming was not created because of the Wii and DS. Casual games have existed long before the Wii was released.
Nintendo didn't invent the casual gaming "genre".
Most online Flash games are considered casual. The early arcade games from the 1970's and 1980's are casual.
The entire videogame industry was labeled as a fad at one point, before the NES came out and made gaming mainstream. Then the PS1 was released and pushed gaming into the forefront of pop-culture.
That really sucks...I wanted to see how the game would look. That was literally some of the most badass looking concept art ever
@tendoboy1984
FPS games were niche?? Goldeneye on the 64? Turok?
@DoubleDragon
I think EA proved that they know what sells on the Wii, and the sales of EA Sports Active I think reflect that.
@Inneverate
If you read MrBubbles post and my comment about his post, you would know I agree, that I think third parties are lazy when developing on the Wii.
I don't see a lot of games with 2 years of development time on the Wii.
The Conduit was a try by HVS to give Wii owners another fresh FPS experience. While they showed that fully customizable controls can work, the bugs/glitches killed the game...
I want to see an Assassin's Creed type game on the Wii, being originally made/developed for the Wii.
I would love for the Wii to actually get a Halo type FPS game that has a big budget and years of development.
3rd parties need to take the time, and develop games like they do for the PS3/360, then say, "Wii games don't sell".
That being said, many developers have been rewarded with creating party games on the Wii...so it's interesting.
FPS games were niche?? Goldeneye on the 64? Turok?
@DoubleDragon
I think EA proved that they know what sells on the Wii, and the sales of EA Sports Active I think reflect that.
@Inneverate
If you read MrBubbles post and my comment about his post, you would know I agree, that I think third parties are lazy when developing on the Wii.
I don't see a lot of games with 2 years of development time on the Wii.
The Conduit was a try by HVS to give Wii owners another fresh FPS experience. While they showed that fully customizable controls can work, the bugs/glitches killed the game...
I want to see an Assassin's Creed type game on the Wii, being originally made/developed for the Wii.
I would love for the Wii to actually get a Halo type FPS game that has a big budget and years of development.
3rd parties need to take the time, and develop games like they do for the PS3/360, then say, "Wii games don't sell".
That being said, many developers have been rewarded with creating party games on the Wii...so it's interesting.
"Nintendo didn't invent the casual gaming "genre"."
I think he's well aware of this. And I don't think he said they invented it. Also, it's not a genre, it's a misnomer. All of the so-called "casual" games are really just emulating arcade-style game play.
"I think EA proved that they know what sells on the Wii, and the sales of EA Sports Active I think reflect that."
Oh I agree wholeheartedly. In fact, I believe I've stated that before in one of my posts regarding Tiger Woods and Grand Slam Tennis. Which is odd considering that the same company is now bemoaning Dead Space's low sales.
"Just cool down dude. Don't buy the games you think are mediocre/crap."
What are you talking about? The point of my earlier post isn't to run around swinging a baseball bat with anger. It's simply a post of passion responding to these publishers who think we're stupid and don't know what quality is.
I have every right to ask for better third-party offerings. I'm the customer.
I think he's well aware of this. And I don't think he said they invented it. Also, it's not a genre, it's a misnomer. All of the so-called "casual" games are really just emulating arcade-style game play.
"I think EA proved that they know what sells on the Wii, and the sales of EA Sports Active I think reflect that."
Oh I agree wholeheartedly. In fact, I believe I've stated that before in one of my posts regarding Tiger Woods and Grand Slam Tennis. Which is odd considering that the same company is now bemoaning Dead Space's low sales.
"Just cool down dude. Don't buy the games you think are mediocre/crap."
What are you talking about? The point of my earlier post isn't to run around swinging a baseball bat with anger. It's simply a post of passion responding to these publishers who think we're stupid and don't know what quality is.
I have every right to ask for better third-party offerings. I'm the customer.
Nintendo has always been making casual games i really dont see why are so angry over it.
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Anyway, sucks it was canceled. At least we're still seeing Dementium 2 thanks to Southpeak backing the project.