I personally like brawl more than melee

brawl is a lot more fun to play

@WiiFolder

Well, it does to an extent (I'd rather win because I'm a badass, not because a heart happened to appear in thin air next to me or because I was closest to a Pokeball), but yeah, there are a lot of folks (a surprising amount) who do like Melee more because it was an accessable game that had just the right amount of depth, glitches factored in, to make for a decent competitive game.

With that said, I've noticed a lot of folks completely misunderstanding some of the Brawl hacks, especially Brawl+. I just want to make it clear to folks (and I understand that RMC's quote up there was just a joke, again, just saying) that these hacks aren't trying to make Brawl _anything_ like Melee... that's not their goal - they simply eliminate elements such as random tripping, add a little more hitstun to allow for 'real' combos, buff the weaker, more unbalanced characters so that anyone who wants to get competitive with their favorite character doesn't have to deal with the whole 'balance' issue, get rid of 'infinites', etc. I know many of you want to make snap judgements about such projects, but for me, Brawl+ breathed new life into a game that, for me, was getting a wee bit boring after a year of daily play. Give it a chance, yo, and don't be afraid - Brawl ain't becoming Melee. If anything, hacks like Brawl+ are there to keep the competitive Brawl scene from becoming like Melee's - limited and elitist.

tl;dr - "they are tweaking Brawl to make it as close to Melee as possible" isn't even remotely the truth, as anyone who'd look into the projects would understand.

Keep in mind, like @terryxlr, I haven't played Melee since Brawl came out. Loving Brawl+, though.

He's not Roy unless he can do that awesome fire attack.

@Sonicandtails

Who cares, all sides are acting like crybabies because Brawl isn't 100% what they wanted it to be so they hack it.

@Sonicandtails

Super Smash Bros is a party game. People who take it serious enough to play it like a competitive fighter are sad individuals.

Hardcore people play the game the way it was designed, no excuses.

@terryxlr

If it can be redesigned as a more tourney-viable game (and again, it doesn't feel quite as different as some of you think it does), what's the problem?

It's easy to say 'hardcore folks play it the way it was designed', but if a game is designed without balance and with gameplay elements that can get in the way, then is there any real problem with doing something about 'em? It's not as though your ability to play vanilla Brawl is being taken away - it just allows those who want a more nuanced Brawl to have it.

@DeAngelo Guillory

I think you misunderstood what I said on more than one level.

First of all, it's not as though people are upset. I mean, some are, I tend not to agree with those people. Again, though, there are plenty of competitive players out there who enjoy, uh, competition, and to be a really competitive game some changes had to be made. No big deal, honestly.

Oh, and, I'll say it again - "because there's always SOME glitch that EVERYONE must learn to get into the "Awesome Players Club""... were you reading? Brawl+ is trying to AVOID that, yo.

Don't know why you're lumping me in a category ('people like you'). I wasn't talking down to any of you, don't know why you feel the need to do so to me.

@DeAngelo Guillory

Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing. Reread the paragraph, please - "There are a lot of measures in Brawl that keep it from being a very tournament viable game on its own. Same with Melee, but instead of being able to balance the game themselves, what happened? Folks began to rely on glitches and exploits to turn the game into a competitive one." I was TALKING about Melee, and saying that there are folks out there who don't want Brawl's competitive scene to become the same way (folks having to rely on glitches and exploits to add artificial depth). That's the concept behind Brawl+ - AVOIDING things like that. Please tell me you understand what I'm saying.

@WhatCD

Call me ignorant, but it just sounds like excuses to me. Instead of tweaking the game to your specifications on how you think you could play it better, I think its better to adjust and adapt to the game as it was originally developed. I don't think having a little unexpected luck in a game should frowned at (in terms of items, stages and tripping). In my mind, the way you deal with the unexpected shows just how good of a player you really are.

Some characters may not be as balanced as you like, but the manly thing to do is just give your best fight with the character of your choice, no game tweaks involved.
@BigLord

Mewtwo kinda sucked.

@terryxlr

"In my mind, the way you deal with the unexpected shows just how good of a player you really are."

I wish you could understand how much I completely agree with that statement. With that said, even if you know how to bounce back from the unexpected, it can still turn the tides of a match - and that's not good. I believe a true test of skill involves the player turning the tide of the match, not random tripping.

I still play as characters I like, and I still play vanilla Brawl all the time - I play both very regularly (Snake in vanilla, Ike in Brawl+). It's never bad to have options, though, and with some of the characters, 'giving your best fight' still doesn't eliminate the inherent disadvantage in picking that character in the first place.

I'm looking at things from a fighter fan's view. I certainly understand where you're coming from, as I'm also a huge Smash fan (clearly), but as someone who's played fighting games competitively for years, you've gotta understand my desire to have balanced games, if only so that when I destroy my enemies, I don't have that thought in the back of my head, you know, "maybe it was the matchup and not the amount of skill I have that won me this match". You know what I'm saying?

@NeroSuferoth

Neither do I, heh heh. That's the thing, I don't want to be lumped in with the folks that do (as if there's anything negative about them sharing a different opinion, but whatever, I just don't like assumptions). Some folks view it as a more tournament-viable game, though, and that's why they enjoy it more. I enjoy competitive possibilities too, but not enough to ignore the myriad of improvements Brawl brought to the table. That's kind of why Brawl+ appeals to me - it retains a lot of what makes Brawl great and simply makes it more tournament-viable, without the glitches or the lack of balance that came with Melee's competitive emergence.

"Why would anyone complain of loosing a match on Brawl just because a heart appeared next to me when the same thing can happen to him on the next round?"

In a competitive setting (this is true for any and every game), sometimes there is no 'next round'.

@BigLord

There is a Mewtwo hack.

http://nsider.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=466235

Oh Geez...changing the game to make it more balanced and tourney viable? Its Shoddy for Pokemon all over again!!!

Well it was yes, but I believe they're trying to add more moves and Pokemon as well now. (See: Cyclohm)

@Sonicandtails

G&W > MK and Snake

I don't think he, or anyone else, was 'trolling', though, they were simply explaining their standpoints just like we were.

@Doggalina

I've heard Mewtwo sucks, but I did actually try playing with him back in the day, and it just wasn't working out between us. He never felt good.

@WhatCD

I get what you're saying.

@WhatCD
(deleted)
Sorry.. I got carried away... U_U

I take it back...

For future games, I just hope they bring ALL characters back, to avoid hacks like this.

It's just a... texture hack...? I was expecting something more... not a texture hack. Roy texture hacks have existed for ages. And work better on Ike, if you ask me.

@terryxlr

I try to avoid those kinds of arguments but I'm not gonna pretend like they're not fun when they do come up

But no, seriously.

Playing without items DOES take skill ESPECIALLY in Brawl where around 10 items are 1-hit-KO. That's basically a test of who can catch said item first.

Items like the Flipper are missed.. I know people preferred the Bumper over the Flipper... but why OVER, why not just have the two of them? The flipper was perhaps the sole representative of Balloon Fight in Melee.

Yes, items can take skill, but keep in mind, when some competitive players are having a match with very high stakes, aka hundreds of dollars on the line, with no re-fights, you want to eliminate as much luck as possible, that is the reason behind hacking brawl and playing without items.

@COlimar788
@BigLord

It actually isn't just a texture hack. They modified marths moves to add fire effects as well as make it so that the base of the sword does more damage, rather then the tip.

I liked Meele more when it comes to completing stuff because it was funner trying to complete something when you knew you could unlock a character or stage for doing so rather then a trophy or a sticker like in Brawl.

I think that is actually the main reason why me and alot of others stopped playing Brawl. They should of made it so you dont unlock the characters in multiplayer just because you unlock them in campaign and instead just used campaign as a way to see all the characters that are in Brawl and try them out.

Hmm, so, it's Marth with a different color scheme.

While one might say this is a tribute to Melee, it also blatantly points out one of the huge problems I had with Melee: clone characters.

They should take the best elements of both games and put them together!

@RustyCage:

You know what? You just made me realize that back in Melee all we complained about was clone characters.

Is it just me or does nobody care anymore in Brawl? (Except for Wolf).

My friends and I are no where near competitive, but even we hit the proverbial wall about 3-5 weeks after release, and haven't touched the game since.

I was glad to hear of the removal of wavedashing, an emphasis on aerial fights, and a slowed, more purposeful gameplay style. Final Smash looked incredibly fun, and The Subspace Emissary sounded delicious.

However, in its execution, I felt like Brawl dropped the ball. Tripping was unnecessary (and unfun), no depth was added to the aerial mechanics (unless you count plummeting to my depth attempting a down-aerial and subsequently activating my fast-fall), and the slowed-down gameplay wasn't to make the game better, but to make it more basic (in terms of gameplay, not accessibility).

And Final Smash just ended up being a character-specific Starman/Hammer. The fight to attaining the Smash Ball was more fun than actually using the Final Smash.

And this is in addition to a lot of the other things that bugged my about Brawl: the majority of stages felt like texture swaps with new backgrounds; Sakurai held a character popularity poll knowing that he already had the final roster and was going to ignore all the suggestions (including those that were 2nd and 3rd most popular); there were no new female or Metroid characters (contrary to Sakurai's comments); clones redux (including the painful Ganondorf post on the Dojo -- why would you want to bring up the fact that you didn't let Ganondorf use his sword AGAIN?!); online was unplayable; Subspace Emissary was woefully generic, including settings/locales, plot, and character development (not to mention gameplay, to an extent...). Oh, and three Landmasters FTL.

Props on the varied music, though. My favorite part of the game. I also enjoyed the addition of stickers. (And I know I ragged on it a lot, but I really did love Brawl for the time I played it.)

The thing is, I don't think it's unreasonable to want a balanced and varied cast of playable characters that are easy to play, but hard to master (WITHOUT the need of exploits and contrived mechanics). I don't enjoy not being able to play as Samus or Captain Falcon (my fav chars) because they've been rendered nigh unplayable (C. Falcon moreso than Samus). I'm not sure if I'd get Brawl+ or Balanced Brawl, but I can't fault people for wanting to play Brawl and not Metaknight vs. Metaknight (and Snake, too!).

Those are my thoughts on the subject, both on the hacks and Brawl in general...

@terryxlr
Well, then do the manly thing and beat me at Tic-Tac-Toe. Don't complain if every game of ours ends in a tie (at best) for you. I want NO EXCUSES.

(If you don't get the above, then you should stop talking. You're not qualified to talk about game design.)

Is a model hack for Marth really worth incite such an argument over?

@terryxlr

What? Well, I guess I DO like trying to make topics hot and hostile at times.

(P.S. I'm assuming you didn't get it, then?)

My post was in response to the topic in general, about Brawl being put on a pedestal and why the hacks are not at all unreasonable for those who want to enjoy Brawl after having already plumbed its "depth" for as far as they could. (Also: To get some things off my chest.)

FTR, I don't think a B+ approach is necessary to give future Smash games depth, but it's out of the hands of hackers to be able to explore those options. (Yes, Sakurai, it IS possible to slow down gameplay in an effort to ADD depth.)

Also, I was just trying to illustrate how nonsensical it is for you to be talking about how "hardcore" players play the game as it was originally designed when the issue is a matter about depth and playability. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the hack as it is.

What you're saying is worthy of an entirely separate discussion, one I probably should not begin.

roy was ny favorite character......

Brawl > Melee.
End of Discussion.

L-Canceling was not a glitch, bub. It was intended. Go back to Smash 64 and read the manual, it's in there as Z-Canceling, or even read the old SSBM dojo, Sakurai brings up L-Canceling on there. It was 100% intentional. Sakurai and his team also knew about wavedashing before putting Melee out the window, they just didn't expect it to be exploited to such a degree.

Know your facts before you spew what you think is true. And tripping is just stupid overall, nobody dash-dances in Brawl because dash dancing doesn't exist in Brawl, the kind that's there isn't useful. Tripping wasn't put in to stop that, it was put in for the lulz from Sakurai and it's stupid, don't even try to give it a legit reason for why it's there, it's dumb and has no reason to be in there in the first place.

Brawl is also not more balanced than Melee. It is less balanced than Melee because the tiers are way more split up (SS to G... that's a ridiculous amount of tiers). And Sakurai has done a lot of stupid s*** to some of the character's hitboxes. Captain Falcon is a prime example of this. Sakurai purposefully nerfed Falcon by not just the game mechanics but, his hitboxes for the knee, the Nair, and Dair. Nair works like Ganondorf's Nair from Melee (the hitbox not matching up to the two kicks, meaning the hitboxes are not out for very long at all), his knee no longer reverses people anymore (even though it's completely okay for Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop to have a reverse hitbox!), and the nipple spike got turned into a hitbox that send outwards (which makes about as much sense as Ness's Dair having the same problem).

There are legit problems with Brawl that people don't even know about because they either don't care, don't notice, or can't tell because most of it deals with the inner-workings of the game. It's bad, it's a bad representation of competitive Smash IMO. Yes, it fits the bill for casual party fun just fine but, it was clear that it was set out to tarnish any amount of competitive spirit in the game.