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Localized versions of Fire Emblem Fates will not include controversial support conversation

Remember back when Fire Emblem Fates came out in Japan? There was a bit of controversy surrounding one of the support conversations. It was tied to a situation that involved the drugging of a lesbian character to make them interested in men. Rather than attempt a localization that remedies any issues, Nintendo has decided to yank the conversation altogether.

Coming from a Nintendo rep...

“In the version of the game that ships in the U.S. and Europe, there is no expression which might be considered as gay conversion or drugging that occurs between characters.”

Comments

Top Rated Comment
tendonin
Thu Jan 21 16 01:47am
Rating: 9

Say no to blind absolutism.

Thu Jan 21 16 01:33am
(Updated 2 times)

My Twitter was abuzz with anger when people found about this particular support conversation. I was wondering how NoA/NoE would deal with it, but it is interesting to know that their response was to cut it. I wonder if that was the immediate decision or if there were attempts to salvage it at first.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the entire support conversation doesn't make sense even if you removed the misinterpreted drugging angle. She's nervous around girls. So you drug her, and now she sees everyone R63'd. That...doesn't help. It just changes the sex she's nervous to. So yeah, it's unintentionally creepy and makes no logical sense as a solution to Soleil's problem. Makes sense to scrap it.

onikafei
Thu Jan 21 16 01:34am
Rating: 1

they probably threw in a new one, I dont mind the cut. Its not like they're cutting the entire game. everyones offended by everything nowadays

Well looks like I'm scalping my special edition of the game. Say no to censorship.

tendonin
Thu Jan 21 16 01:47am
Rating: 9

Say no to blind absolutism.

Hey it's art, from fire emblem to garbage like Gone home. If the developer made it one way, don't change it to appease people who aren't even going to play it.

Thu Jan 21 16 02:02am
Rating: 2 (Updated 2 times)

While I'm sure there are quite a few who wanted this gone that don't even care about Fire Emblem or maybe even gaming in general, I actually know some people who are really interested into jumping onto Fire Emblem with this title, and stuff like this was making them hesitant to even touch it. Removing this support conversation, which is ultimately a small part of the game (and probably has a replacement conversation so you can still get with Soleil if you want) can only help grow the game's audience in the West, continuing from where Awakening left off.

Localization and possible censorship will always be an issue, as it is a balance between keeping a work's original intent and atmosphere while pushing it into regions with differing cultures and ideologies and making it "proper" enough for those new regions to justify the cost of localization to begin with. Not every choice is going to be right (the costumes debacle with the M-rated, digital-only Fatal Frame 5 was a questionable thing, for example), but I feel like removing the conversation wholesale might have been the best choice.

Video games are art, but it is also entertainment and a business. And with that comes collaboration. And with that comes some concessions having to be made in order to get the best possible product out there.

freezair
Thu Jan 21 16 04:25am
Rating: 10 (Updated 1 time)

The thing about these localization debacles that really gets me is that people seem to think that English is the only language things ever get changed or "censored" in, and that Japan is some magical land where everything is permitted. But things get changed or removed in the transition from English-language media to Japanese all the time. A particularly famous example is cartoon characters with only four fingers on each hand. This is an incredibly common animation trope in the West. In Japan, however, four-fingeredness has a deep cultural association with the Yakuza (and subservience in general) since Yakuza members will cut off their pinky fingers as a way of showing subservience (a tradition that dates back to feudal Japan, since a person missing their pinky has less control and grip on a sword). So something as innocent (to us) as a cartoon character with simplified hands has a nasty connection to something criminal and unpleasant in Japan, and a number of Western cartoons have had their hands painted over or digitally altered to have five fingers in Japan.

A good example of this kind of localization in video games is in Banjo-Tooie. In one level of the game, there's a group of pigs who went swimming in a pool polluted with some kind of toxic waste, and as a result, one of them has grown an extra arm. Silly and funny if you live in the West, but in a country that's dealt with the effects of nuclear fallout in populated areas, far less so, especially in something intended to be a reasonably lighthearted family game. In Japanese, the character's extra arm was removed and the mutation references were cut. Not surprisingly, something similar happened in the Fallout series--you can't detonate the disabled nuke in Fallout 3 any more in the Japanese version, since something like that would be incredibly uncomfortable there.

Heck, there are even non-Japanese examples out there. There was an episode of the children's cartoon Peppa Pig that outright wasn't shown in Australia because it was about how you shouldn't be afraid of spiders. In the cartoon's homeland in the UK, that's a perfectly acceptable moral since most spiders you'll find there are harmless critters who'll eat the annoying pest bugs in your house. In Australia, which is home to an incredible number of deadly spider species, you don't want your children to run around playing with any old spider they come across.

Different cultures consider different things acceptable, and more often than not, you're going to run into one or two when you're translating or porting things across country lines. Sometimes they'll just look funny to outsiders--for example, giving people gifts to befriend them in the Harvest Moon series sometimes looks a bit bribe-y in the West, while people in Japan literally give more gifts than any other nation on Earth--and sometimes it gets too uncomfortable--like anything skeleton-related in China, where it's considered in EXTREMELY poor taste to defame the dead. And if you want to make a work considered acceptable in a different country, you have to adapt.

hamr
Thu Jan 21 16 02:13am
Rating: 2 (Updated 1 time)

Why is it automatically assumed that these changes are imposed in violation of the developer's will?

What if the developer's original intent with the scene was, I dunno, to make players laugh?

If a publisher transplants a game to a region with differing values such that now the scene instead makes players feel awkward as hell, is it somehow unimaginable that the developer might be okay with its removal?

Edit: Ergh, dogpiles are not cool. When I first hit reply, there were not any others. Sorry about that.

This change appeases people who definitely are going to play the new Fire Emblem. That convo has been a point of criticism in the fanbase since it was revealed, not just in the gaming media in general.

Anyway, games as big as Fire Emblem are made by committee with lots of side-content that sometimes panders to a very specific crowd (otaku) and not others. I would see your point if a sole developer's personal vision were being altered, but it's not like Shin Kibayashi, Yusuke Kozaki and the late Iwata were all laboring over the dialogue in a 30 second genderswap drug scene. It's fluff.

So let me get this straight. You're displeased about this change, so instead of canceling your special edition to not give Nintendo your money (an act that would prove how unhappy you are with this change), you're still buying the game, giving them your money, and then scalping it to people who'll pay enough for you to profit like $100 or more so you can make money off your unhappiness?

Seems a little messed up to me.

Personally I don't see what the problem here is. If I'm not mistaken, Soleil's personality quirk was the opposite of Lon'qu's in Awakening. Whereas he was awkward around girls, she's awkward around guys. And since the female avatar's way to get him to talk to women was pretty funny, I have faith that whatever they replaced the conversation with will be good too, even if Awakening was 8-4 and this is Treehouse.

Not surprising, really.

Jeez, all these people in the comments condoning the concept of drugging someone. Still, it's kind of weird that they're outright cutting any sort of gay implications.

They're cutting "gay conversion" implications, but it's probable that Soleil will still be written as pretty gay. This only really effects the male player character's ability to S-rank her. Also same-sex marriage has been confirmed for two other characters.

tendonin
Thu Jan 21 16 01:46am
Rating: 1

Basically a textbook example of why localization is not simply translation. There have been dialogue changes like this ever since the series left Japan (such as alcohol references being glossed over in the T-rated Path of Radiance) I'm sure there will be plenty of "Suggestive Themes" to push the boundaries, so chill out.

With the whole thing going on with Cosby drugging woman, it was going to be cut anyway. Why would Nintendo take the heat on this easy attack seen as ''Oh Nintendo is teaching young kids through FF:F about drugging woman''. Then they would lose the family image they have & kiss future sales goodbye. Easy to understand why Nin never worked with MJackson(r.i.p.) due to the bad image he had. All this aside I still have the CE ordered & another part of me wishes I was part of the lucky PB winners because my bottom be living in Japan right about now with no worries about these censorship.

Even though I'm sure people are mad at the "SJWs" for this, I'm glad Nintendo went this route. Sexuality is hard enough for people to deal with without having a company you respect suggest that conversion therapy is appropriate in any circumstance.

The character should have been bisexual from the start, but instead they made a lesbian into the protagonist's conquest. Gross.

grcpan
Thu Jan 21 16 04:25am
(Updated 2 times)

Well this has nothing to do with the SJWs. This is just localisation, which has been happening for as long as games have been localised. Another example was the one the recent DYKG video mentioned, where religious references were cut from Mario games to not offend people of the western world.

On top of respecting different cultures the localisation process also has to target the age ratings that the creators intend to sell their game to. What is considered a game for teens in Japan can be considered a game for adults in the west. Other times the very vision of the game also requires extreme localisation changes, like Yokai Watch.

This is not big news, this is what has always been happening. But with the whole GG vs SJW thing going on, people have found a good way to grab the attention of others and make some good bucks out of nothing by taking advantage of the situation.

For the record I wanna clarify that I know it's nothing to do with SJWs haha -- I've just noticed a lot of people blaming them lately over things like the Xeno and Fatal Frame changes. The fact that Nintendo has been acknowledging the intercultural stuff lately has made me appreciate them even more.

I actually really hate when people name others as SJWs haha, it's such a lame way to try to invalidate their arguments. I'm liking that the discussion has actually been reasonable this time around, though I can't say I've looked at the certain forums where the term gets flung around the most yet.

I thought we already learned that was NOT what the dialogue suggested and it was a bunch of idiots overreacting.

If I am not mistaken, the girl wasn't drugged to make her like guys, it was some magic to make girls look like guys so she wouldn't faint from being attracted to them to try to calm down.

Kind of like trying to make someone contain their horniness.

But you know. Let's keep pretending it was trying to make a lesbian straight, when that wasn't what it was.

wavebuster
Thu Jan 21 16 03:54am
Rating: 1

That's still a really gross concept.

What part of it is gross?

You are helping them so they can function on the battlefield instead of being infatuated.

You weren't converting them, or trying to change anything, it is also a temporary thing, not a permanent thing where she sees them as guys. It was a short spell so that when she did see the girls later, she would still like them, but it wouldn't interfere with her duties.

It's like if you took classic Dragon Ball and used a spell to make Yamcha see Bulma as a guy for a while so he wouldn't get shy and weird around her, then when it wore off, he would be comfortable near her, and still like her, but it wouldn't make him act weird.

It's like if you took classic Dragon Ball and used a spell to make Yamcha see Bulma as a guy for a while so he wouldn't get shy and weird around her, then when it wore off, he would be comfortable near her, and still like her, but it wouldn't make him act weird.

That's actually a pretty good analogy. It especially helps that I finished Dragon Ball last month so those moments are still fresh in my memory.
Though, I fear people would still take issue with it even so.

If I am not mistaken, the girl wasn't drugged to make her like guys, it was some magic to make girls look like guys so she wouldn't faint from being attracted to them to try to calm down.

That probably is true, but I assume that the misconception has become prevalent enough that NoA would rather distance themselves from the issue.

But you know. Let's keep pretending it was trying to make a lesbian straight, when that wasn't what it was.

Well, we wouldn't want to miss the opportunity for NoA be progressive, would we?

*sigh* Well, can't say I didn't guess that would happen. Oh well.

It happens. This was no surprise and no big deal.

However, I do wish people in general were more accepting of cultural differences and ideas that they may not be comfortable with. I like it when people's moralities are challenged by art. It makes people think and start discussions.

Maybe someday.

artten
Thu Jan 21 16 05:18am
(Updated 1 time)

I'll leave this here for anyone who wants to play censorship apologist bingo, I know I will be playing it.
https://twitter.com/CensoredGaming_/status/662108392505401344

Haha ^^
I agree that this one bingo is a lot funnier than the reverse, since it only has one argument, and thus only a single box to check. That argument being:

"It's bad because it is."
...
Exquisite.

Do you want me to MSPaint it for you and possibly tweet it? That'll probably take about a good 30 seconds of my life but I'm pretty sure I could still find a better use for it.

Do as you please, it's irrelevant to me, I'm just laughing at all the pro-censorship morons.

nurio
Thu Jan 21 16 11:57am
(Updated 3 times)

Well, to be fair, there are more arguments than that. There is at least the "I want to have the artist's true original vision" argument, and probably several more. (I'm not saying I necessarily agree with those arguments, though I am in the camp of "change as little as possible when localizing".)

There are also a few of my own arguments. Localization as it is now isn't that bad, but probably my biggest concern is that if we all simply allow all these edits without any opposition at all, it will get worse. Corporations will possibly think any edit is fine and thus they can cut out anything that might even be remotely offensive to the most sensitive people. We could end up with games that have been stripped of everything and are as bare-bones as can be.
Yes, that sounds extreme and I don't think it would really get to that any time soon... Hm, to put it another way... Just as there are people crying offense to the smallest thing, there should be people who cry the exact opposite to bring balance to the situation as to not tip over one way.
In a sense, you could say it's compensation. An uproar because silence is deadly in these situations. Without any negative feedback, corporations will likely do as they see fit, whereas if they know that there is also a large group of people who want as little change as possible during localization, they will keep that in mind.

So this change is about getting the game some decency in a scene where it clearly lacked it.

And some people are not okay with that. Right.

Welcome to the internet. :/

nurio
Thu Jan 21 16 12:05pm
(Updated 2 times)

I want to ask you, do you know the original scene? What was it like? Was it really as indecent as most people claim?
I've seem numerous claims that it really wasn't as indecent as a lot of people made it out to be.

Now that I'm a bit more informed, the scene is not bad in itself, but it's poorly written in my opinion. Why they used such an idea in the first place is beyond me. I know that if I had played the game and seen that scene, I would have thought of some of the interpretations that were mentionned there and I would have thought this is poor taste.

I see, that's fair enough. I don't think the writers had any bad intentions, and I personally don't see much wrong with the scene from a moral point of view (though I also understand when some people are a bit irked by it).
What bothers me about the scene is how flimsy it is. If it had been fleshed out a lot more, it would've been so much better. And it might also help weed out the controversy surrounding it, because instead of a minute change in romantics (that looks like an effect of the potion, though it isn't), it'd be a love that slowly grows and develops over time, making it feel more like genuine affection.

artten
Thu Jan 21 16 07:08am
(Updated 8 times)

So I'm going to throw a little more context into the conversation, this is a accurate translation of the romance dialogue scene by a native Japanese speaker, who goes by the handle best mom eva @mombot on twitter, so all props to her and the translation she did half a year ago (it should be noted that this scene may not necessarily be the one represented in the game that was changed, but by all accounts it most likely is)
https://twitter.com/mombot/status/617311206609522689

A further point that should also be noted, regarding the magic potion, and the context in what it is used for, is in regards to the character fainting at the site of cute girls, therefore if she was fighting a cute gal in battle she may faint, and become a liability, hence the potion was designed for her to see all cute girls as men! And how this translates to a date rape scenario is a little beyond me, but the people pushing this narrative are questionable at best, and yes I've seen people actually say this.

Update, this update has a link to a post by Sir Super Scoops, who has gone through the Japanese version and can elaborate a little better on the character of Soleil's back story, and how this story has been missed communicated by the press when the game was first released, because they didn't do a proper fact check on their source and her credibility https://m.imgur.com/gallery/Z46S9

And again, props to best mom Eva@mombot for the translation and Sir Super Scoops.

A further point that should also be noted, regarding the magic potion, and the context in what it is used for, is in regards to the character fainting at the site of cute girls, therefore if she was fighting a cute gal in battle she may faint, and become a liability, hence the potion was designed for her to see all cute girls as men! And how this translates to a date rape scenario is a little beyond me, but the people pushing this narrative are questionable at best, and yes I've seen people actually say this.

Exactly. That's also why I think that the headline on this article is very misleading. It implies that there was some date-rape drugging thing (or gay conversion thing) and that it has been removed. But it actually was never there and thus it's also not there in the localized version. That's what the representative is talking about, I think.

As a sidenote, Twitter really wasn't made for something like that. Trying to make sense of that mess was very cumbersome.

Yyou're right, twitter is not the place to do a ad hoc translation of the game, and I do wish that she had put it in Word press, which would make it a lot clearer in terms of a format which doesn't take so much effort to understand. But unfortunately that's how she chose to do it, so that's all I had to work with whilst trying to help to clear up this matter.

I think the paragraph I quoted did very well summarizing what the scene truly is about, so I applaud you for that!

Thank you, I really appreciate that.

...I'm actually fine with this. I mean, if that's the only thing censored, of course. But you can still have man-man, woman-woman relationships, right?

By the way, I'm pretty sure Nintendo had to choose between weebz and tumblr girls with this one. Weaboos whine about everything and got used to some sick stuff in anime like "wincest", lolicon and... let's say... "forced" stuff, just to not say the "R" word :T ,

...and Tumblr girls make like 10 scandalous articles about controversial stuff and make people boycott whatever they can, so I'm pretty sure Nintendo had their choice clear.

The real question is who's spending the money on games, the tumblrinas or the weab's?

Who has the strongest voice and doesn't have to even play the game? That's right, the tumblrinas. They just have to hear that some nintendo character is forcing a change on sexual orientation by giving drugs to another characters and BOOM, it's a thing on facebook. I can see the comments already:

"This is why I don't support Nintendo"
"Nintendo, that's sick"
"I guess I'll be burning my son's 3ds tonight"
"Jesus doesn't support Nintendo!!"

artten
Thu Jan 21 16 07:46am
(Updated 2 times)

That's the sad truth you speak their friend, that's why I'm not a big supporter of boycotts, but I am a supporter of petitions and letter writing campaigns, to voice one's concerns directly to the developers, instead of getting into protracted fights with people who push skew facts, because they either don't bother doing the proper research or the current fals narrative about a game is conducive to promoting their agenda.

By the way, I'm pretty sure Nintendo had to choose between weebz and tumblr girls with this one. Weaboos whine about everything and got used to some sick stuff in anime like "wincest", lolicon and... let's say... "forced" stuff, just to not say the "R" word :T
Haha, being a strong opponent of too much localization change in video games, being called a weeb with his "sick stuff like wincest, lolicon and forced stuff" kind of hurts. In fact, it really has nothing to do at all with the matter. If you read a few comments here, you'll see other people more accurately translated that scene and showed it isn't really as sick as some people made it out to be.
Aside from that, just because people would rather have a game a certain way doesn't make them a weeb who's into sick stuff.

"kind of hurts". May I wonder why? Seems like the foot does fit in the boot after all.

Whatever the context is, you're still gonna use a "trick" to force a lesbian to change her sexual orientation (Which, let's be honest, doesn't make any freaking sense) against her will at your advantage.

Okay now that I know a bit more about all this, it's a non-issue.
It's clearly a case of Nintendo trying to avoid problems because there is a situation in the game that is not bad in itself but was fairly stupid and would very clearly lead to various interpretations and controversies.

I don't blame them for that.

To be clear I am against censorship.
That doesn't mean I have to be the same 100% of the time. I was against Tharja and partly against Fatal Frame. I could find a million other examples where I was clearly against censoring a game. But I also agreed with the Lin Lee case because I'm against sexual portrayal of child girls. Even if I lived in Japan, I would be against it. A lot of japanese people actually are against moe and these kinds of things in general.

Things are not all black and white, not in Japan, not here not ever. All you can do is consider things case by case and chose a side, but don't fool yourself thinking one single angle or great principle can be enough to make your point or to even decide which side of the debate you're on. That's true for the 'think of the children' people but also true for the 'censorship is bad because duh' people.

Heh. Just when I finished posting replies to your other comments, I read this comment of yours, kind of making my replies obsolete. Though I hope it will still bring some insight!
Out of curiosity, what do you think of the edit to make the Tomohawk class a Cowboy class in Bravely Second?

mlt-malavida
Fri Jan 22 16 01:09pm
(Updated 1 time)

Yep this is time change for you my friend. It's like I'm always late, or early to the party but never really on time, hence the numerous messages when people start actually reacting to them ^^

That thing in Bravely Second, I really don't get it. This is a great example of localization done terribly wrong (does it really qualify as censorship btw?). How in hell is this supposed to help in anything and what exactly is it supposed to prevent?

Was it just adapting the game to western audience? In which case they really must think we are morons if they actually thought that having a stereotypical indian was too much cultural diversity for us to handle. That's almost insulting.

Was it not to offend native americans with a stereotypical representation of their culture? In that case how is replacing that representation with the stereotypical enemy suppposed to help?

And then my last point, last but not least, I'm sorry but the tomahawk job looked way better.

I have very little to add to what you said because I agree on all counts and you've really said everything I wanted to say. =P

It's an idiotic change that doesn't make sense. I don't think it was offensive to begin with, and the Cowboy certainly isn't any less offensive, at least.
I doubt it's some sort of localization that people wouldn't understand or like a native American. It really was to prevent controversy, I'm sure. But it was a failed attempt at that.

And yeah, the Tomohawk class looked so much better!

And in today's episode of "It Only Counts As Censorship When Nintendo Does It" 3rd Party Studios Intelligent Systems changed a part of their game that was being called THE DATE RAPE SCENE by certain small group of sad people bent on shining a bad light on Nintendo and its associates at all times.

Having freshly had the complaint-ammo taken out of their guns yet again, they immediately reloaded with old chestnuts and started calling this move "censorship" and announcing that they were cancelling or scalping their non-existent preorders.

The subtext of that scene, regardless if it was magic or drugging a woman, would NOT bode well here, considering the Cosby scandal going on, as well as the overall more progressive nature of people towards women. Also, to all the dudes here who condemn this blasphemic "censorship", imagine the experience of the women who will play Fire Emblem this time around during this scene. The gaming population in 2016 is bigger than you, it is more diverse than you, and I'm glad this was cut, while still preserving the homosexuality aspects of the proper characters.

Like you say, whether it was magic or a potion doesn't matter much. What matters, however, is what the magic/potion did and for what reason.
I implore you to read this comment as it shines a light on what the scene really is. There are no aspects of gay conversion, date rape or whatsoever. It is about making someone more comfortable and efficient on the battlefield since they have a tendency to faint.
Yes, what is making that person faint is the sight of cute girls, so they came up with this solution to make them see girls as guys.

So, I am now imagining several girls I know playing this game. I am very certain their reactions will range from bemused to amused, but none of them will find it offensive

I know exactly what the scene is and however you wanna massage the truth about it, the acts that take place in it are a little unwelcome in today's environment of advocacy. Maybe your friends would be cool with it, but the populous at large will probably not be.

Hmmm, and it's a shame. There is no foul intent with this at all. It's innocent and funny, but apparently that doesn't fly for some people. And those people need to make their issue everybody's issue.
Don't get me wrong, I understand times, standards and values change. What is okay now might not be okay later, and what was okay in the past isn't okay now. Surely, we become more decent as the human race as a whole over time. I'm glad we live in a world where certain things are now a taboo (and illegal in most cases) or vice versa, though we can always improve. It's still not perfect.
This particular case, however, still just doesn't seem like an issue to me.

Glad this was removed as I firmly believe it is impossible to change sexual orientation.

You probably don't quite understand the situtation. The scene isn't about changing sexual orientation, it's about making a character temporarily see people as the opposite gender so that she can overcome her nervousness about being around other women. The point of contention arises from the fact that she was unknowingly drugged for this.

But reactionary people blew it up as a story of somebody drugging a gay person to make them straight.

I know this will be an unpopular opinion and not many people here will agree with me, but...

On top of what you said, I'd also say that the 'drugging' in this case isn't quite as severe as any other drugging. It's not like it has any dark implications or anything. Yes, you do something to another person without their knowing, using a potion. But, considering you don't really change this person (you only change their perception, not even their preference, thoughts or feelings) and you don't take advantage of the situation, I find it more along the lines of a white lie than anything serious like drugging.

OK, woah. Changing someone's "perception" by slipping them a "magic powder" against their knowledge is pretty akin to drugging. I know it's a recurring trope in Japan, but you're doing some serious mental gymnastics to make that out to be a white lie and not at all creepy.

Another point being missed in this discussion is the "magic powder" ends up causing Soleil to fall in love with the protagonist. She sees him as a girl, gets attracted to him, and later in their confession scene says "ever since that day I saw you as a girl, I've been in love with you." Maybe that's a little funny because she's still clearly into girls, but it's still approaching the problem of "we've made this girl gay but she still has to be romanceable by dudes" with the solution of "drug hijinks will make her see things differently!" No part of that is a good idea.

Well, here it is. I said it was an unpopular opinion, so I was ready for people to disagree with me.
I assure you, I'm performing no mental gymnastics. Feel free to call me insensitive, but I just don't really see this magic potion/powder thing as a huge issue. I'm not really making a huge effort to find ways to excuse it; I just passively don't think it's a big deal. Nothing more to it

I think the description can be worded better then.

Yep. It all started with some people heavily misinterpreting the scene and causing a scene about something that isn't as big a deal as it really is. Sadly, those kind of people exist, who want to twist facts just so that something seems more offensive than it really is.
RMC, being as busy as he is, has no time to check every single thing, so when he finds something reported by multiple sources, he'll also post it as is. (That isn't to say he has no scrutiny at all; for example, he often is pretty good at discerning something as a rumor or fact, and knows which sources are more reliable than others.)
Sadly, this only propagates the misunderstanding, though. It's not really anyone's fault aside from the people who willingly twist the truth and spread issues just for the sake of it.

The point of contention is also that Soleil falls in love with the male protagonist as a result of the drugging. That's where the gay conversion stuff comes in. He slipped something in her drink and she fell in love with him.

The "intention" of the character might just be to make her less nervous, but that's not all that happens.

If the character genuinely falls in love with the protagonist, I don't see a problem. If I read this right, her love isn't an effect of the spell/drug at all. It only enabled her to fall in love with him, but the love is genuine and not forced. There is no brainwashing going on here.

Sure. Within the narrative, the protagonist is just trying to help, the spell's effect is temporary, and no one is written as being taken advantage of. It's feel-good anime comedy/romance faire. Nobody can make you, Nurio, feel offended by that, but I don't think that absolves the writers from all criticism and editing for the choices they made. Here's the sequence:

1. It's a game where all playable characters have to be romanceable by the opposite-gender protagonist, which is itself a point of criticism
2. A character is written as being REALLY attracted to girls, pretty much exclusively
3. That character is drugged to see everyone genderswapped, with the intention of making her less nervous
4. Seeing the protagonist (who drugged her) as a girl conveniently allows her to fall in genuine love with him, so they can marry and have a kid like all the other pairings in the game.

I could argue about how genuine that love is if she had to see him as a girl first, or how healthy feelings are that come from a coerced situation (like Stockholm syndrome), but regardless:

Obviously the writers weren't trying to write a creepy scenario. But I don't think it's misconstruing or misrepresenting the scene to be offended by that sequence of decisions. It's not treating gays with a lot of respect to suggest they just need to be "helped" into seeing the world differently, so they can act like everyone else. That's a really common idea that leads to families sending their gay children away to "conversion" Bible camps and whatnot. Unfortunately, the idea behind this FE scene bears a lot of (probably unintentional) resemblance to that idea. Plus it's mechanically in service of your character straight-marrying the girl.

Sorry for the long response, but 1 more thought: if you write a story and tons of people are put off by it, is that their fault or yours? I think the writing for this support could have been a lot better if they were trying to convey something innocent and natural. But they were writing for an initial audience with a lot less baggage about girls' drinks being altered to make them see differently. That's where localization comes in, to keep the tone not-creepy for the new audience. I imagine the new support, if there is one, will just be more about talking through her problems and leaving magic tricks out of it.

Well! Let me first say, thank you for that very insightful post. It sure made me look at it a little differently and helped me understand it more.
About your first point... Is it a point of criticism because it's exclusively opposite gender or because every playable character is romanceable? If the latter, I wonder, what do you think of romance visual novels or dating sims, where every female is also romanceable by a male protagonist?

I can agree that the writing is very convenient. That this character happens to fall in love with the protagonist. But it seems to me as a 'necessary evil', so to speak, because of this rule that every character needs to be romanceable.
Could they maybe have just not made her romanceable? Sure, but if I'm not mistaken, romancing someone gives gameplay advantages, so stripping that character from those advantages is strange from a gameplay perspective, and I don't know what's worse.

You pose an interesting question at the end, and I was thinking the same. Should the writers change for the people or should the people change for the writer? If anything, I wouldn't say anyone is at fault, though. That implies either of them did something wrong, while I think neither of them did.

I also admit that I am playing devil's advocate a bit. I am an opponent of too many edits in localization (or worse, censorship) but I am usually pretty okay with most edits that have been made recently. You can read one of my reasons for doing this here. I have a few other reasons, but this is the biggest one.

Thanks! I don't care much about dating sims one way or the other, and I welcome that FE is a SRPG series that's introducing elements of dating sims to make it more lively. But it's also trying to tell a serious and consistent story, and yeah, some fans aren't fond of how every character is ready to fall in love with you at the drop of the hat. It's not 100% based on gender and child-rearing, because 2 characters (Zero and Shara) can be married to either male or female protagonists. But being able to marry everyone of the opposite sex leads to weird supports where the characters don't have chemistry or you're marrying your siblings. (Although

Spoiler

.)

Soleil is actually a child character to begin with, so she can't have kids unless it's with the male Corrin, where she gets the Corrin-specific kid. It wouldn't have a big gameplay impact if you just couldn't marry her. Personally, I think it would be best if Intelligent Systems limited the marriage mechanic a bit more like in past FE games, so characters aren't eligible if they're too young, too old, too gay, or if they hate you, or are related to you. The developers are trying to please everybody, and I'm ok with a lot of wish-fulfillment fantasy, but in cases like this it gets to be a bit much.

Hmm, I am honestly finding myself agreeing with you. If there is no gameplay advantage to the love story, I see very little point to it in its current form. I read the scene, and it seems very weak and character-inconsistent. In such a case, I'd rather her not be romanceable at all, since this appears a bit jarring. Though I can't judge it too well based on this scene at all.

...I say that, though I'm actually a bit split. I do prefer character consistency a lot (so, as you say, characters who are too young, old, gay, hateful or related shouldn't realistically be romanceable) but at the same time, I would also say people should be able to have that choice to romance their sister (for example) if they want to. What if they've taken a particular shine to her?
Honestly, I think the better option is to have as many people as possible be romanceable, but invest a bit more time and depth into it so it is all a bit more natural and fleshed out. If characters don't have chemistry, nothing says they won't have chemistry over time.

This actually reminds me a bit of this Metal Slug game... I don't remember the details anymore, but I believe there was this female character who is your... general? Either way, she starts out being cold towards you, but after each mission you talk to her and she warms up more and more to you. I actually really liked that progression.

Also, I believe we've reached the end of the comment nesting? So you probably won't be able to reply to this directly. If you still have something to say, feel free to either reply to a previous comment of mine or to start a new comment thread. I'm subscribed to this thread, so I'll get a notification either way.

I thought the whole magic potion thing was weird from the get-go and wouldn't play well in America/Europe. It makes sense.

"Drugging of a lesbian character to make them interested in men" is definitely not what actually happens in that support line. I'm glad other people called this out already, because when I saw this article I registered an account and waited for verification just to be able to comment on this false narrative.

Here. In an easier to read format than the twitter posts by Best Mom Eva (though I of course appreciate her efforts), have the ENTIRETY of Soleil's support. And once you're done, PLEASE change the text of the article to not be so flagrantly misleading.
http://pastebin.com/bgQC0yEa

Thank you for this. This is the most clarifying one of them all!
Hmm, it seems to be a bit... easy? I don't know how much time and how much training has passed, but it felt like she fell in love with him really easily!
But I suppose that's the case with basically every character? Having never touched a Fire Emblem game, I imagine these support lines are small side stories to increase the character's stats with no intention of creating a grand love story out of it?

You've pretty much got the right of it. If you look at the vast majority of romantic supports, they're just kind of lighthearted or cute interactions between battles that turn into the characters revealing their affections for each other over an unspecified amount of time. It's rarely very fleshed out, and some of them don't really make much sense (Soleil included really, or fem!Robin's own route with Chrom in Awakening), but never intentionally dark or hostile. Really, they're mostly just anime cliches. The part where Kamui spiked her food is a little skeezy when viewed from a western perspective, but you have to consider that when he told Soleil, she welcomed it and encouraged the experiment to continue, even if it didn't really solve her problem very effectively.

...Well, I can't say supports are NEVER dark. Tharja is pretty weird...

Point is, people made up an issue that didn't exist so they could cry outrage about it, which puts us in the position we're now in where the Word of God has to make the decision to sweep it under the rug to avoid further controversy, as is so often the case. Ironically, it's likely that in this case, a new controversy will be sparked that Nintendo is "erasing" her lesbian identity, which is equal amounts of nonsense.

I agree that they shouldn't have edited this out, especially not for the reason they likely did it. If anything, I'd rather see this improved and fleshed out, because as it is, it seems a bit too... thin (or unrealistic) to really satisfy anyone (or at least me).

I wonder how exactly they edited this scene. It could be better (in the sense they made it more of a realistic change) or worse (she just falls in love with him for no reason whatsoever).
At the very least, I hope it won't create any more controversy. It has already seen enough controversy as it is!

Why make this content in the first place?

It's a little jarring to discover Fire Emblem's history of really dark subplots....and plots in general. I'm talking before the west had any real idea what Fire Emblem even is.

yomerodes
Thu Jan 21 16 09:19pm
Rating: 1 (Updated 1 time)

I'm fine with the change...but this brings more questions to the table I think.

So, this lesbian girl was given a little potion to help her with the fainting issue alright. And as an added bonus it was a plot device to facilite the romance between her and the male protagonist...

BUT

Was the potion altogether removed? Was the lesbian girl changed in the localization altogether? Because if the homosexual comunnity was going to throw a fit because a lesbian character was given a 'self help' potion that coincidentally puts her in the route for a straight relationship with motherhood involved, I don't see how they would be LESS annoyed when said lesbian character becomes all lovey dovey with the straight alpha male without any magical potion (or for the alarmists, drugs) involved, and instead gets the hots for the protagonist exclusively because of his animal magnetism.

Glad to see this piece of news was posted on Siliconera too. The comments there are a comedic gold mine.

The real question is whether or not NOA is willing to go through with letting players go full Shelbyville with their cousins/siblings, since those represent about half the game's cast.

I thought that was the whole point of this game.

hamr
Fri Jan 22 16 03:29pm
Rating: 1

Hey, we all make mistakes.

For instance, I thought Fates was a turn-based strategy game.

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