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The ALL NEW Super Smash Bros. Discussion Thread

So... after nearly derailing the discussion section of a completely unrelated story, it was suggested by someone (Blade_Master) that I go and create a new Smash Bros. thread dedicated to a potential new entry of the series (or a port of Smash 4 to the Switch too... I suppose...) where we can come and post all our thoughts on everything Smash related, just like we did on the old Smash Bros. thread... before the old forums got deleted anyways... so here it is!

Um... don't know what else to put here... someone else suggested I do this. I'm more a reactive kind of guy than a pro-active one... and kinda preachy and pushy and a perfectionist... and impulsive... sometimes I'm actually happy the old forum was erased... pretty sure I was coming off as annoying and a bit of a jerk a few times there... and I'm derailing the thread again...

Anyways... Smash is always a subject worth talking about, so let's discuss it, shall we?

::: UPDATE - March 8th, 2018 :::

The recent Nintendo Direct has confirmed Smash is coming to Switch!

Given a tentative "2018" release date, not much was revealed, except that the Inklings of Splatoon will be joining the battle. Mario's return has also been confirmed, while the Breath of the Wild incarnation of Link was also shown, although to what capacity his role will be--a costume, a replacement of the previous Twilight Princess incarnation of Link, or an entirely different character--is currently unknown.

Furthermore, whether this is an entirely new entry in the series, or some form of port of Smash for Wii U/3DS is uncertain.

Replying right away so that this thread can become visible in the sidebar.

One of the discussions we were having before was what franchises/characters do you think are locks for the next smash bros game?

So far, most agree that at the least Splatoon seems to be a lock. But there has been some debate on whether or not ARMS is worthy of a spot. I think that it would make sense for the franchise to have character representation as it has been relatively successful on the Switch. I also think it would be oood for Nintendo to have some synergy between its two fighting franchises.

Yeah, Inkling from Splatoon is basically guaranteed at this point... the whole thing just shot up like a rocket and is now rising higher with the Switch sequel. It's easily the biggest and most popular Nintendo owned franchise at this point not to have a playable character.

As for ARMS... I'm still not 100% convinced it's a guaranteed lock at this point. Yeah, it was good and successful, but I'm not sure that alone ensures anything really...

Actually, I think we're reaching a point where we can't really say any franchise/character being included in the next Smash can be called a certainty. They've added most, if not all of the A tier franchises at this point, and a lot of B and C franchises as well... same with characters too. And looking back at which franchises/characters got in and which ones didn't, it's hard to say what logic they're working with to decide who they include... there doesn't really seem to be a noticeable pattern, at least from where I'm looking.

So before we discuss potential newcomers....let's discuss who is most likely to not return. Smash 4 had I believe 58 total characters counting DLC, so we would probably see that roster reduced some. Here are my choices for who to remove:

Corrin (Give a new FE character a spot)
Dark Pit (Make him a Pit Skin)
Dr. Mario...well actually keep him and retool Mario too be more based on Odyssey
Cloud (unless FF7 comes to Switch)
Lucas (skin of Ness)
Mewtwo (not relevant anymore. Can give us something more recent)
Roy (not relevant anymore)
Falco (retool or remove)
Jigglypuff (not relevant. Can be replaced with a better pokemon choice)
Link (retool with BotW moveset. Young Link can stay for the classic Link moveset)
Lucina (skin of Marth)
Mii Fighter, Brawler and Swordfighter (they suck)
Sheik (replace with Impa from Hyrule Warriors)
Wii Fit Trainer (why she ever got in I don't know)

That is 14 less characters, so that would give us plenty of room to make additions. What do you think?

jd
Mon Jan 29 18 02:58am
(Updated 9 times)

Well, I suppose this is as good a place as any to start... although I don't know if we can really discuss who is "most likely to not return" since the current roster is full of characters who many were sure weren't coming back.

Corrin - inconclusive.
I like her move set, especially the moves she uses in Fire Emblem Warriors, but I can understand why some say she should be removed though. In truth however, Fire Emblem characters in general is going to take some deep thinking, so I'm not certain...

Dark Pit - complicated.
Making Dark Pit a costume character for Pit in the same vein as Alph with Olimar might make some sense for Dark Pit.. but the idea of him using the Sacred Treasures Final Smash doesn't sit right with me, so I'm not 100% on board with the costume idea... not 100% on board with Alph still being a costume either, what with Olimar's Final Smash involving the Hocotate Freight ship; something Alph never encountered during its functional days.

Actually, the whole concept of clones in general needs to be looked at... there are advantages to their existence; there will always be similar, but not identical characters that won't work as mere costumes... cloning might be the only real option in those situations. Uh... for the record, I'm not advocating for Dark Pit's return... I do kind of agree, his addition was really pointless...

Dr. Mario - removed.
I suppose I should start by saying we definitely don't need two Marios... at least some clones like Dark Pit and Toon Link have the advantage of being completely different characters, but this is literally a second version of the same character. It would probably be best if Dr. Mario became a costume for Mario... maybe they could even use custom moves to give Mario access to the Megavitamin attack for a more authentic Dr. Mario costume.

As for your idea of retooling Mario to be based on Odyssey, I'm going to have to say no to that. While I do agree he can use some updating to reflect newer games (drop the F.L.U.D.D. for Cappy maybe?) a full revision based on one game would be very unwise for a character who is both constantly evolving and yet still hold onto his traditional skills.

Cloud - removed.
Even in the odd chance Final Fantasy 7 came to a Nintendo system, I'm not really happy how Final Fantasy on Nintendo systems has been handled over the years... I fear the series as a whole may as well be called a Sony-specific franchise by this point. There are other more Nintendo related franchises from Squeenix that deserve the spot.

Lucas - removed.
Considering how similar he is to Ness, it would just make far more sense if he was a costume for him. Save the spot for another character; perhaps even a different Earthbound character.

Mewtwo - keep.
I have to strongly disagree with your opinion here (as my avatar probably makes obvious). There are few Pokemon characters with any real degree of obvious relevance, but I'd have to say Mewtwo is one of the few who has some; he's the closest thing to a villainous Pokemon the series has--he was the main antagonist in Pokken Tournament, fyi--and one of the few uber-tier legendary characters who can work in Smash. The way I see it, the three most longstanding relevant Pokemon are Pikachu, Mewtwo and Lucario. The mascot, the villain and the hero, or for a more specific comparison: Pikachu=Megaman, Mewtwo=M. Bison (or maybe Akuma), and Lucario=Ryu... at least, that's the way I feel Game Freak regards them.

Roy - removed.
From what I keep hearing, Roy and his game of origin represent an unremarkable part of the entire Fire Emblem series, and that the only people who really want him in Smash are the people who like playing him in Smash... not really a good reason to keep him around, so I have to agree he needs to be let go. I suppose he could work as a costume for someone else like Marth or Lucina... but then his fire effects would be reduced to just visual effects... which I suppose could work?

Falco - removed.
Don't get why he keeps coming back... he's still a clone, he's still his obnoxious, arrogant self, he's still no more significant than Slippy or Peppy, and there are plenty of better Star Fox characters (Wolf? Krystal?) and blaster characters (Saki Amamiya?) that could take his place.

Jigglypuff - removed.
Was Jigglypuff ever relevant? I know it was once one of the more popular characters, but that was forever ago. Its only strengths in Smash were removed in Brawl and it's been a bottom tier character ever since. And the number of viable replacements keep getting bigger... it just makes no sense to keep it around.

Link - complicated.
Once again I must disagree with your idea of retooling a character to match a single game, especially a character that actually represents about 12 different characters. This is Smash Link we're talking about; he represents all Links, not just one of them; reducing him to one specific version of Link would be disregarding the entire history of the legendary heroes of Hyrule.

That said, Smash Link could easily be updated to include more recent games, including Breath of the Wild moves (the Remote Bombs would make a nice Custom Move). Furthermore, it would be nice to see a variety of costumes based on the various Links, rather than just one incarnation as was in previous Smash games.

As for Toon Link (I'm assuming you mean Toon Link when you say Young Link), well, that's equally complicated. On the one hand, I don't see why we need two largely similar characters (well, they're different characters, but they look and fight the same anyways) and I don't really agree that we need a Toon Link just to represent the art style. On the other hand, games like Wind Waker and Minish Cap are great and I'd love to see them get represented... honestly, I'm not entirely certain about this...

Lucina - inconclusive.
I'm not sure the idea of turning her into a costume for Marth would work... there's a few noticeable differences in the dimensions of their bodies that might make them incompatible. On the concept of character costumes however, I do believe characters like Chrom, Alm and Sigurd would make great character costumes for Marth.

As for Lucina, one idea I had was make Anna playable... having appeared in just about every game, she'd make for a good representation of the whole series. She would wield a sword as her main weapon (maybe based on her Awakening incarnation?), and like Marth would also have many different character costumes, including Lucina, Caeda and Celica. There are so many A-tier Fire Emblem characters, this would be a simple way of getting many in with minimal effort, while providing some variety between them.

Mii Fighter, Brawler and Swordfighter - removed.
Putting create-a-characters and Miis in general into Smash never appealed to me... the fact that Nintendo seems to be moving away from Miis suggests there's no point in holding onto them. Also, isn't this technically three characters, not one? I mean, they're all different after all.

Sheik - removed.
While I agree keeping Zelda's one-off alter-ego is kind of pointless at this point, I'm not sure I really want to see Impa take over her move set. I loved Impa in Hyrule Warriors, with her oversized sword and water powers... would prefer she used something like that.

Wii Fit Trainer - inconclusive.
I have mixed feelings about this one... on the one hand I kind of like her, and don't really want to see them ax entire franchises. On the other hand, her move set is weird... I know, this is Smash, weirdness is to be expected... and yet some of her moves go beyond my... what's the term? Suspension of disbelief? My ability to ignore the illogical nature of what's going on. Summoning a ball of light with Sunrise Salutation and flying with Hoola Hoops... and the fact that all her attacks are literally yoga moves... I'm just not sure about her right now...

Alright then... there's my opinions on your ideas... now here's my suggestions:

Bowser Jr. - inconclusive.
I'm gonna just come out and say it... I despise this one; he just seems like a filler character, popping up to pilot a machine that could just as easily be controlled by an AI or a generic enemy, and not very consistently I might add... he wasn't in several recent games like Mario 3D World or Odyssey. The fact that he fights with a machine--meaning we fight his machine, not him--doesn't do anything to help that feeling. I confess I do like his move set, and playing as the Koopalings... but feel like he just doesn't deserve the spot, especially for a franchise that's guaranteed to have no less than eight characters (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, plus Yoshi, Wario, DK and Diddy, which are technically Mario characters, even if Smash doesn't treat them as Mario characters).

Rosalina - inconclusive.
I actually like Rosalina and how she fights... but again, I'm not convinced such a minor character really deserves a spot over so many alternative options, especially now that we've moved away from the Galaxy series.

Charizard - removed.
I never understood the love this character got... it's a generic fire "dragon" character... and if fights like Bowser with wings... the Pokemon franchise is loaded with unique character designs, why waste the spot on something so generic?

Greninja - inconclusive.
The fact that this one was added only because Sakurai thought it looked cool has always bugged me... not saying that it isn't an interesting character, but like Charizard before it, I feel like it's fairly generic as far as Pokemon go and with its generation done and over with it may be a bit outdated by this point to keep around.

R.O.B. - inconclusive.
Maybe it's just me? But I always found it odd playing as a real-world peripheral that never appeared in any sort of actual game. Doesn't help that its entire move set is made from scratch, and not because it comes from old games with little to work with, but because it doesn't come from any game.

So...Nintendo is going to put their online system in place in September. I wonder what big game they'll have to accompany it?

I'm assuming this question is meant to be rhetorical, and you're trying to say we should expect Smash in some form around that time?

I left it open ended to see if other people think it is Smash too.

I personally think it will be Smash...or an online Metroid game?

I really doubt any character will be removed (excluding any licence troubles that may occur with any third party character or so).

Since I am very sure the next Smash will be the Wii-U game with most of the 3DS stuff, + a decently big chunk of content, I believe the game will release this year.

And just for fun, I wrote down the 15 characters that I think are likely to be included (I don't mean there'd be 15 new characters, it's just a random number I picked).

Spoiler

I also want Break The Targets to return. I really don't think it'd be THAT hard to make unique ones for each characters. Assets can easily be simple and many can be reused across all different characters. Plus, characters of the same franchise may even have the same Target arena, to make it a bit easier. Placing some targets and some simple blocks and such should not be too hard, especially when they do not have to make the rest of the game from scratch.

And a evolved version of Melee's Adventure would be awesome to have. With Path choices after every battle.

You start by picking which platformer level to play (like the Mario and Zelda ones from Melee). Maybe have three choices of those. After you beat one, you get to pick again between three levels of another style. Let's say, a level where a huge enemy chaces you like that Porky statue in Brawl. Pick between being chaced by Porky, or Crocomire, or a Breath of The Wild Guardian, and have a little level themed after whichever you pick.
Then pick among three franchises to have a standard battle with, then maybe pick between some 'survive a horde of enemies' style level. Make it so that all/most franchises gets at least One pick possible in the adventure. This would make it VERY fun to replay over and over since you can only pick one out of three in all of this.

And of course have a good chunk of Bosses from various games, too. Etc etc.

That would be amazing.

blade_master
Sat Feb 03 18 06:35pm
Rating: 1 (Updated 1 time)

My thoughts on your characters:

Spoiler

My thoughts on your thoughts (hehe)

Spoiler

Also, if we get Indie characters, I also have three of those I could see happen!

Shovel Knight, Shantae, and Freddy Fazbear. And I am not joking about Freddy. He is one of the most inconic faces in recent memory, Japan loves him, and he'd be awesome in Smash. He'd stick out SO much that he'd fit in SO well. His trailer could be Luigi watching him on the Cameras, and then getting jumpscared. :p

Do you think indie characters should have a character rep in Smash? On one hand, I like the idea of representing indies. But I really don't want to open the floodgates for indies with the inclusion of one character, the way sonic opened the floodgates for third parties.

Speaking of third parties, who would you like to see return? I combined a list of old and the ones you listed. Let's say you can pick 6. If you want someone not on the list, feel free to add them as well!

Bayonetta
Cloud
Snake
Sonic
Ryu
Megaman
Pacman
Crash
Sora
Rabbid
Sora
Banjo
Bomberman

jd
Mon Feb 05 18 11:51pm
(Updated 3 times)

I believe indies deserve at least one representative in Smash, especially with how active Nintendo seems to be with going after them... as for 'opening a floodgate' I don't see how adding one indie character would change anything; it's just another third party character (unlike Cloud... now there's a character that set a very bad precedence)...

I'm not good at picking anything unless I'm totally certain, so how about I just give my opinion instead?

-Sonic, Mega Man & Pac-Man
Personally, I'm of the opinion that these three will definitely return in future Smash games, barring any disagreements between Nintendo and their owners of course. Sure, we can argue over the quality and frequency of their games being released, but in the end they are iconic to gamers and gaming history, past and present, are the mascots of their respective companies, and every once in a while do star in a really good game (that usually appears on a Nintendo system too), proving they (or more specifically their creators) are still capable of greatness.

-Bayonetta
A very curious character to consider... before, Nintendo owned one entry of the Bayonetta series... now they own two... that's two-thirds of the series exclusive to Nintendo platforms, because Nintendo made it happened. Nintendo must really like her if they're going out of their way to support her so much... wouldn't be shocked if she made a comeback.

-Cloud
As I've stated before, Cloud's inclusion into Smash is really dumb... the Final Fantasy series hasn't seen a major title on a Nintendo system since the SNES and Final Fantasy 7 hasn't appeared on Nintendo systems at all. The series is basically alien to Nintendo systems by this point in time... even if Final Fantasy 7 was to make it to Nintendo at some point in the future, I feel like there are better Squeenix characters and franchises that should get the spot before Cloud.

-Snake
Highly doubt he'll ever make a comeback. He only got in because Kojima requested it, and Kojima doesn't work for Konami anymore... furthermore, his addition in Brawl hasn't brought much more of the Metal Gear series to Nintendo systems, while the series continues rather consistently on other platforms. Finally, if they really needed a Konami representative in Smash, they have some really good alternatives...

-Ryu
Iconic for sure, but I can't help but feel the Street Fighter series is a bit of an odd choice right now, thanks in no part to Sony buying up SFV and the general failure of both SFV and MvC:Infinite... honestly, I'm not sure right now about Ryu (the fact that I would prefer Chun-Li probably isn't helping)...

-Crash
Umm... well... let's see... started off as a Sony character, starred in three generally considered good games... got sold off, starred in a lot of generally considered bad games... is now back in the spotlight because his first three games were recently remade, currently Sony exclusive. Can't say I really feel Crash would make a worthwhile addition... at his best, he's a Sony character, at his worse, he's a meager attempt by Activision to make some quick cash off of nostalgia... either way, I feel there are much better options...

-Sora
The Kingdom Hearts kid? Isn't he owned by Disney though? I've gotta say no to this one... his game history looks a lot like Snake's; few games on Nintendo platforms, ALL games on Sony systems, and once again I must say there are better Squeenix characters and franchises that should get the spot first. ...also, your list has Sora posted twice...

-Rabbid
I'm not one to hate on the Rabbids, but like many other characters on this list, I feel there are better options... not much else I can say about them really, other than maybe adding a Rabbid over someone else, like say Rayman, would be like adding Toad over Mario.

-Banjo
Back in the old days, Banjo could have been regarded as an obvious addition... but those days are over; Banjo belongs to Microsoft now, we need to accept it. Until the day comes where Banjo makes a major return to Nintendo systems, I feel there's no reason to try and drag him out of Microsoft's dungeons for one last shot at Nintendo greatness.

-Bomberman
Remember when I talked about Konami and great alternatives to Snake? Bomberman is arguably the greatest option (although some will argue Simon Belmont is, but we're not talking about him this instant). The White Bomber and his crew have been pretty consistent on Nintendo platforms, most recently with Super Bomberman R on the Switch. Among obvious third party icons with a strong affinity for Nintendo, I feel Bomberman may be the top choice.

So there's your list, here's a few of mine.

-Shantae
So about those indie developers... I'm sure many would argue Shantae is the biggest and most iconic... certainly the oldest; indie developers weren't even a thing back then I think. Her genie powers and charm would certainly make for a colorful character.

-Shovel Knight
I agree he would be fun... but I can't help but feel it takes more than one game to build a strong enough legacy to justify a third-party character... even if that game was really great.

-Travis Touchdown
Full confession; I've never played a No More Heroes game. That said... he looks like he'd be crazy fun, and his franchise remains exclusive to Nintendo consoles (well, minus the first one, but that wasn't Suda 51's idea).

I like the idea of Sonic, Megaman and Pacman being "permanent" inclusions. All three are iconic gaming legends and are some of the most deserving of spots.

Bayonetta I think is a sure bet to return. The potential for cross promotion with all 3 Bayo games on the Switch makes it more probable than not.

Who would be your Square Enix rep? I must've posted Sora twice because I really want him!

Snake, Ryu, Cloud, and Crash all seem more like "Sony" characters than Nintendo characters. They have so little appearances on Nintendo consoles that I wouldn't want them to return at this point.

I think indie wise, it comes down to Shantae and Shovel Knight. I think at this point, Shovel Knight is much bigger than Shantae in terms of popularity. If it was one of the two, I would prefer Shantae, but expect Shovel Knight. Travis...yeah I don't know much about him either.

jd
Tue Feb 06 18 10:53pm
(Updated 3 times)

As far as Squeenix character options, the most obvious would be someone from Dragon Quest... the whole series, from 1-11 is playable on Nintendo consoles... plenty of spin-offs too. And it goes without saying that Japan absolutely loves it. I'm sure retro Squeenix fans would love Chrono from Chrono Trigger or Geno from Mario RPG... those games are certainly classics... but I don't know if that means they deserve a spot.

Not sure I'd really call Ryu a "Sony" character at this point... especially not when compared to Snake, Cloud or Crash, whose greatest games are definitely exclusive to Sony platforms... at least Capcom remembers to throw Nintendo a Street Fighter-shaped bone every once in a while...

I'd prefer Shantae over Shovel Knight too... going by character/franchise strengths Shantae has Shovel Knight soundly beat with both age seniority and four games to one... and if Shantae worked at all like I think she would, she'd definitely have Shovel Knight beat in terms of uniqueness as well. Overall she strikes me as the vastly superior option.

As for who is more popular, well, I'm just going to say I hate it when popularity is the deciding factor... yes, it should be considered, but if there are characters with greater strengths, they should come first, not the popular one. Popularity isn't a static figure; it's constantly changing, and a popular character now can easily become the has-been character later... but what a character is and what they can do? That can't decrease, it can only expand over time...

I forgot about DQ because I never played a game in that franchise. But that is actually a pretty obvious choice for a character. Do those games have a "main" character ala Link or something?

The reason I bought up popularity is the fact that in general, indie characters are already much less visible. If they were to put an indie in Smash, it would most likely be a "bigger" one. Given the fact that Shovel Knight has critical acclaim and an amiibo, it just seems like Nintendo would gravitate towards him.

All that said, I'm still rooting for Shantae tho.

I don't think Dragon Quest has a true main character... it's kind of a Final Fantasy or Fire Emblem situation with that series; every game is a unique story with unique characters, so picking one to add would require some thinking.

That said, while not at all a main character, the reoccurring minor enemy character Slime appears to be very iconic... it even stars in its own spin-off games. That said, among Dragon Quest enemies it appears to be on par with a Goomba... and unlike a Goomba, it doesn't even have legs...

Lol if Slime made it into Smash that would be even more odd than Wii Fit Trainer.

I would love for Indies to get at least one Rep, since Indies are a big deal nowdays and they are doing super well on the Switch. ^^
IF we get indies, I'd see Shovel Knight, Shantae, Freddy, Yooka-Laylee, Isaac, etc, as some possible one, though if we'd just get one, which is more likely, I'd say Shovel Knight. He'd be sweet in Smash.

Also, I believe Snake sorta opened the floodgates for third parties, since he was the first one, no? Or maybe Sonic sneaking in made others more likely than if just Snake was in. Not sure. XD Either way, at first, I was reluctant to want third parties, but since it seems they are here to stay, then sure, let as many of them in as possible. Though just make sure to give us plenty of Nintendo ones first.

Ah, if I HAD to pick 6 from your list...
Sonic
MegaMan
PacMan
Crash Bandicoot
Sora
Snake

I think. Three old classics, and then two new big characters, and then Snake as the returning one. ^^ Though I'd hate to let go of Bayonetta. I do not personally care much for Ryu, I am not even good at him, despite playing as all characters, haha.

blade_master
Tue Feb 06 18 06:44pm
(Updated 1 time)

Why Crash? He doesn't really have the gaming icon ala Sonic, or Mega/Pacman. He doesn't have the popularity on Nintendo consoles either. Do you just like the character?

He is not a Icon in the same level as MegaMan or PacMan of course, but he has been on Nintendo consoles for longer than he was a Sony exclusive, and with N. Sane Trilogy selling close to 5 million already, it is clear he is still beloved, and with the game coming to Switch this year, it just feels like a good time. One cannot deny how big Crash was back in the day, and I think that, if Activision is fine with having him, now that he is actually big again to promose and such, and with that new Crash game extremely rumored, I just think Crash would have a good chance for Smash. Plus, I'd love to see him in. He'd fit in well. ^^

If Activision wants to get Crash in, they need to start supporting the Switch imo.

Crash games, COD, and at least 2 other (non-shovelware) titles would be a good start. Some major support would be great too.

I never really though about this, but because they are Activision BLIZZARD, I would love to see Overwatch announced for the Switch (say 640 or 720p @ 30fps) and seeing Tracer in Smash.

While I do not think Activision releasing games for Switch would be necessary for them to be allowed to have Crash in the game, as I think Crash is big enough for Nintendo/Sakurai to be happy to use, but at least it is all but confirmed that the N. Sane trilogy will release on Switch, and that is a fitting support. ^^

Also never played Overwatch, but I know Tracer is sorta the face of it, right? I wonder how likely she would be. I bet it'd be a big deal.

jd
Tue Feb 06 18 12:02am
(Updated 4 times)

Ugh... I am legitimately confused as to how your mind works...

-No characters will be removed
The larger the roster, the harder it is to maintain balance and keep adding more characters to it... furthermore, some characters will inevitably loose their relevance and reason to be included; several of which have already hit that point... if they really want to keep expanding that roster into newer and bigger ways, they'll inevitably have to make room by cutting out the older and smaller characters.

-Wolf
Personally, I think they need to ax Falco and make room for Wolf. Which character is more important; one of three equally annoying sidekicks who is still clearly a clone, or the single arch-rival who shouldn't be limited to copying his rivals? Since I'm of the opinion that Snake won't return, I feel someone should take up his move set, and if any Nintendo character could do that, Wolf would probably be the one.

-Snake
Your logic here is quite ridiculous... the "he brings uniqueness and lots of non-Nintendo fans to Smash" reasoning could be applied to literally any third-party character that isn't Nintendo exclusive, and many of them have far greater value to Nintendo than Snake does. Furthermore, just because Bomberman saw success on the Switch means nothing in regards to the future of Metal Gear on Nintendo platforms... and even if they did decide to bring another Metal Gear to Nintendo, unless it's the whole back catalog of games, I don't see how one title would make a difference when there are all those other Metal Gear titles not on Nintendo systems...

-Spring-Man
As much as I hate to admit it, there IS some logic here... some really tragic, tiresome logic that holds down potentially great characters in favor of generic ones. Of course, they could pull a Robin and skip Spring-Man like they did Chrom for being too samey...

-Ridley
I really don't want to get into another debate over why a forty foot monstrosity should be cut down to a quarter of its size just to sate fandumb demands, so let's not talk about this one. I'm assuming by "recent events" you mean Metroid 2 remake and Metroid Prime 4 (I can't think of anything else)? Don't see how that improves his odds any more than every other Metroid game before it...

-Third Link
This one is almost as bad as your Snake logic... there is absolutely zero need for a third incarnation of Link. Seriously, how many Zelda characters or Nintendo characters or even third-party characters could fill the spot before yet another blonde elf boy with the Master Sword? This logic also works under the premise that BotW is still the relevant Zelda title and not the inevitable sequel...

-Pauline
What better female is there than the original female? Lots, that's for sure. They could make a creative move set for her? Plenty of characters you can apply that logic to. I love that they brought back Pauline in Odyssey, I really do... but this shouldn't mean she should get a free ticket to Smash...

-Crash
To quote my previous statement;

at best, he's a Sony character, at worse, he's not worth adding... either way, I feel there are much better options...

-Freddy Fazbear
You do remember that Five Nights has never appeared on a Nintendo system... like at all. Even Cloud has more going for him than that... seriously creepy weird thing...

masterofmonster
Tue Feb 06 18 03:45am
Rating: 1 (Updated 1 time)

I did make a reply, but I do not like arguments and such so I will edit it back later, but I wanted to say first, that i wish you'd say things a bit less 'insulting'.

Things like 'confused at how your mind works' and 'your logic is ridiculous' and such, just comes off as unecessarily mean for no reason. And takes literally all the fun out of talking about Smash for me.

I do not intend to argue about anything. But if you are gonna counter my partly wish-list, partly what I deem is likely, you can do it in a much more pleasant way.

jd
Tue Feb 06 18 11:56pm
(Updated 2 times)

Well I didn't take the time to mention in the opening post that I've been a "preachy, pushy perfectionist who comes off as a bit of a jerk" because it was a lie...

And as for me saying 'confused at how your mind works' and 'your logic is ridiculous' and such, perhaps they could have been worded nicer... but I still have to stand by the basic premise; I do not understand your logic at all. Your thoughts on Snake is a pretty good example:

1. Nah, I think he'd be important in Smash BECAUSE he has very little Nintendo representation. 2. He adds a lot to the game and will surely bring in a lot of non-Nintendo/Smash fans. 3. Plus, whatwith Nintendo being budies with Konami after how great Bomberman did, I am positive we'll see Metal Gear games come to the Switch.

1. How does the first line make any sense? How can having little Nintendo representation make a character important to Smash? Certainly it can't make him more important to Smash than a character with lots of Nintendo representation, can it?
2. You say Snake adds a lot to Smash... but can't that logic be applied to almost any unique character? And wouldn't literally any non-Nintendo character with a strong enough presence on a non-Nintendo platforms, starring in games that are played by gamers who don't own Nintendo systems, also potentially bring in a lot of non-Nintendo/Smash fans?
3. Assuming Nintendo and Konami are really great buddies now as you say, and assuming the success of Super Bomberman R does motivate Konami to bring more games to Switch (it's not like big Switch successes by Sega, Capcom and so on has them rushing to put every game they own on the system), what makes you so positive any of those games will be a Metal Gear game and not another Konami franchise? Why not any of one of their many other franchises?
And assuming we do see another Metal Gear game on a Nintendo platform, what if it's just one game? That certainly wouldn't even out the great and obvious disparity between the few Metal Gear games on Nintendo systems VS the many Metal Gear games on other systems.
And what if it's just a port? You know, like the one we got on the 3DS while the others guys got that game PLUS a compilation of most of the other... that certainly wasn't enough to bring Snake back to Smash 4.
And even then, why does any of this instantly mean Snake deserves to return? Why give the spot to Snake because "Konami decided to finally give us a Metal Gear game after years of nothing" when other characters such as Bomberman not only have a much longer, stronger history with Nintendo, but are also seeing success on Nintendo consoles right now? Or any other successful third party character from a franchise that has built a stronger connection to Nintendo than the one Snake has?

You say your list is partly wish-list, partly what you deem is likely... and yet, trying to figure out your rationale, I can find no reason to think your list is anything but pure fanboy wish-list, with little apparent logic beyond "I like that character, he is cool, so he should be added to Smash first" mixed with an odd sense of certainty in things that are, at best, a plausible maybe...

masterofmonster
Wed Feb 07 18 02:34am
(Updated 2 times)

It is good you know you are 'pushy and preachy' cuz' then you should also know to try to not be that, hopefully. It is not fun to discuss Smash that way. And yeah, I can tell there is no point with us talking about any of this. having read some of the other things you have said about Smash, it is clear it will not result in anything good. It is much too different.

But I won't argue about it, so you do not have to respode to them, as it is clear there is no point. I also do not have time to reply to your page-long Snake post, especially since I know I heavily disagree, and it would lead to nothing.

So, yeah, anways. I am hoping we'll get some real Smash news soon so that there is more than only speculation to talk about.

blade_master
Sat Feb 03 18 06:39pm
Rating: 1

In regards to your singleplayer ideas, I think that would be interesting. I really enjoyed subspace emissary, but I think they have too many characters to do it right now. So a return of adventure mode would be good enough I guess.

Break the targets is definitely something that should return. It was as popular as homerun challenge.

I hope, given that they already have a majority of the game developed/ready to be ported, they can greatly expand singleplayer.

Thank you. ^^ And yeah, while something similar to Subspace Emissary is very doable, having cutscenes for all those characters like in Brawl is probably not something they wanna spend time on. But yeah, a Adventure Mode upgraded would be amazing instead.
Break the Targets as well. They do not have to be pretty or super complicated, but some simple layouts that makes you have to use that character's unique abilities a bit, would be very fun with such a big roster.

I do not actually expect a big new Single Player Mode, honestly, but I'd still love to see it. I think most of the focus will be on getting in new characters. I do not think anyone will be cut from the Wii-U version, licence issues with third parties aside, and I expect between 5.10 total new characters. Which makes the roster gigantic, but yeah, since they have the game finished, I think enough focus can go on balancing new fighters.

I am also trying to, just for fun, make a proper moveset for Freddy Fazbear just because he'd be hilarious in the game, but I have no idea what kind of Final Smash he'd have.

I am probably not going to expect a new Single Player Mode either....but it would be a good surprise! If MK8D got a proper battle mode, we can hope!

If the game is a port of 4, I don't think they will cut anyone, but if it is 5, I am anticipating some cuts.

I never played 5 Nights, so I couldn't tell you what a good final smash would be. Maybe whoever gets caught by it is surrounded by four doors, you get the opportunity to choose which door to come out of and the player caught in it gets to pick which door to shine a flashlight on. Guess right, you escape, guess wrong you get KOed.

Yeah, I was thinking about Mario Kart getting some nice content, and I think that they'd wanna make even more content for a new Smash release. Smash 5 or a port, I do think it will be fully built on the Wii-U version, so IF that is the case, I am not sure I expect any non-third party cuts, since it'd be wasteful to remove finished, functional characters. Unless they just REALLY wanna stop promoting someone.

That is actually a very cool and unique idea for a Final Smash, Blade. Thank you, I'll use it. XD

blade_master
Wed Feb 07 18 08:22pm
Rating: 1

Glad I could help haha!

mako
Fri Feb 09 18 10:08am
Rating: 2

I'm happy that the development team can focus on one console with this next game. I really hope it is Smash 5 and not a port of the WiiU game. They can start with that game for the groundwork, but idk how I would feel with just another port like MK8.

Also, anyone saying Jigglypuff will be cut doesn't realize you cannot cut an original 12 character that has been there every single game! It's not going to happen and I'm willing to bet on that. Also, Mewtwo is like top 5 most popular Pokemon, but since he has been cut before I guess that is possible.

As far as characters I want added. Yes, Inkling is basically guaranteed. Scizor (Pokemon) is one I always wanted added, but that wouln't happen now if it didn't happen with Melee. Another one I have always wanted was Goku, but I don't believe he is eligible based on Sakurai's comment before saying they had to originate from a video game. Although, he is well represented on almost all Nintendo consoles.

While most things are not set in stone, yeah, I agree that none of the original 12 will be cut, especially not if the next game is built upon Smash for Wii-U, which is almost certanly gonna happen, for better or worse. ^^ Plus, Jigglypuff is still a very popupar Pokémon.

I have often said I beleive Decidueye may be a new character in the next one as well, but since Gen 8 may be very close already, it would not surprise me if Sakurai (assuming he is involved) would have gotten to see a brand new one and make it playable instead, ala Greninja.

Inklings, yeah, I doubt a Smash could go without a whole load of Splatoon content from now on. Splatoon in Smash is sure to make it a even more gigantic deal in Japan than ever before. ^^
If Inklings becomes a character, which will happen, and if they have 8 alts like all other characters, I can see two Inling Girls, two Inkling Boys, Callie, Marie, Pearl and Marina all being in the same character spot, as skins. I am sure they'd go the extra mile for Splatoon with that, and if all Koopalings even got that much attention, then Splatoon sure can. It would be awesome.

blade_master
Fri Feb 09 18 04:31pm
Rating: 1

What if they made Splatoon have two character slots. One slot would be 4 inkling girls and 4 inkling boys. The second slot would be like the ice climbers in that it would be Marie and Callie with 4 skins and Pearl and Marina with 4 skins.

That is a interesting idea. The more Splatoon characters (as in, slots, with different movesets) the better. It it certanly important enough for more than just one moveset. ^^ Though I doubt they would do a Ice-Climbers with the News Duos, it'd be cool. What would they be called, tho? Just have it 'Callie & Marie' and then change it to 'Pearl & Marina' when you select that? I guess that isn't really a problem, but still. ^^

Would be cool, tho. And random prediction, speaking of Ice Climbers, I feel that, if they do return (they will), then I feel they may change them so that Nana and Popo cannot seperate. Like, that they are still two, next to eachother, but they are part in the same movement, and cannot actually split up in any way. I am not sure why, but I feel that is a change Sakurai would do to more easily balance them.

jd
Fri Feb 09 18 10:57pm
(Updated 2 times)

I don't really see the point... more so, I don't see the point of pairing them up like Ice Climbers... furthermore, isn't Pearl noticeably smaller than Marina (and Callie and Marie for that matter)? Unless she goes through an unexplained growth-spurt, matching Pearl to the other characters' dimensions won't work, which means she can't be a skin for the other characters.

''

They'd have to give her like two inches I guess. Or they could just slightly lower the hitboxes. I'm sure they could make a small adjustment like they did for Ludwig and Bowser Jr.

Also, do you mean you don't see the point in the character? I was just thinking that Splatoon is a mega-franchise in Japan. As we've seen from FE, games that are big in Japan get a lot of representation.

jd
Sat Feb 10 18 02:17am
(Updated 3 times)

That looks like more than two inches to me... more like half a head... there's a noticeable difference in height there... and by 'lowering the hitbox' do you mean for all characters, or just the one costume?

And I don't see the point in putting in two Splatoon characters... people complain about there being too many Fire Emblem swordsmen, at least there's some obvious differences ... but how different can two squids armed with a menagerie of squirt guns get? Sure, you can swap one set of guns for another... but after that?

I'm positive that if Sakurai can make so many movesets for people with swords across all of the many franchises (Link, FE, Shulk, Cloud, etc.) he could handle making unique movesets based around the numerous different types of weapons available in Splatoon. They have a ton of different movesets in Splatoon, and while sure you can boil it down into all of them shooting ink, you could say the same about swords all being used to cut.

I forgot about Jigglypuff being an original 12 character.

Goku would be so much fun to play as...but would be as big a WTF character as WFT. Would love him as DLC though,

jd
Fri Feb 09 18 10:42pm
(Updated 9 times)

Also, anyone saying Jigglypuff will be cut doesn't realize you cannot cut an original 12 character that has been there every single game!

Oh we realize that's what some people think, believe me. It's just that that sort of logic (assuming you can call it logic) is completely asinine... especially for a character who, from the looks of it, has literally no other reason to be in smash. If 'tradition' is the only reason you keep doing something, then why keep doing it? Especially when the alternative is arguably superior?

Scizor... don't know. As far as Pokemon characters are concerned, the only necessary ones to me would be Pikachu, Mewtwo and Lucario... after that, it's sort of like 'this one is cool, but this one is unique, but this one would be interesting..." lots of thought, no certainty. Doesn't strike me as the most unique or interesting character... but those claw moves in Pokken sure look neat.

Goku would be an... interesting addition to say the least. One that I have imagined in Smash more than once. That said, there's likely a good reason non-gaming characters aren't eligible. Besides the obvious licensing headaches, the effects of adding a non-gaming character could be catastrophic... I mean, Cloud set a bad enough precedence (suddenly, any third-party character with even the smallest appearance on a Nintendo system is apparently a viable candidate it seems), but adding Goku... that's less 'opening a floodgate' and more 'GIANT ASTEROID IMPACT' type situation; I mean, every fan list would be filled with manga and comic book characters for starters... people might suddenly assume every non-gaming character in existence can be in Smash... where would it end? Sticking to gaming characters sets a well defined boundary... it's just the sensible thing to do.

I don't think Pearl being a shortie would matter much. Alph also looks a bit wonky with Olimar's body, and while Sakurai is detailed about things like this, IF they decided to make the hosts into alts, I dobut they'd let Pearl's slightly shorter stature be in the way. They'd probably make her the other's height. No one would really notice anyways.

I do not think they'll have any pair-ups aside from Ice Climbers, and I believe more in the Inklings just all being skins of eachother, IF they decide to have playable hosts.

Anyways, when Inklings are included, I hope they use as many of the Splatoon weapons as possible. I will assume their neutral standard attack will be like MegaMan's, with them shooting with the Splattershot. Dash Attack being a Roller. Forward Smash, maybe a short-ranged but very strong Luna Blaster. Up Smash, Splatling. I could see the Down Smash being a bit unique, with them using a Charger instead, rather than doing the standard 'hit both sides' like most others do.
I believe their Specials will be mostly the Sub Weapons, while all normal weapons are used in various normal attacks. No idea what to pick for a Final Smash, tho.

Not sure I like the idea of them whipping out different blasters to perform different basic moves when they all have the same basic function... sounds pointless to me; why animate a bunch of weapons, each for one attack, when a simple Splattershot can perform the exact same function for all moves? Plus, I think it would stick closer to character, what with players unable to swap weapons in the midst of battle. My idea was to give them a Splattershot for basic attacks, and sub-weapons for Smashes, like the Sprinkler for Down Smash.

I do think they should use different weapons for their specials however; a Sniper for B, a Roller for Side B (press to launch ink, hold to roll and run)... they'd use the Squid Jump for Up B... don't know about Down B, but I'd love for them to sneak the Splatling in there somewhere.

As for Final, I always thought the rocket from Splatoon would be awesome. You know, the one where you launch a rocket and it becomes a giant ink cyclone... yeah, that would be pretty good.

Eh, I feel that would be pretty boring, and I don't see why they'd stick with all/most moves being the same Splattershot in different directions. I think normal weapons for normal moves and Sub weapons for Specials sounds much more interesting. Like how MegaMan uses loads of different Robot Master powers for all of his moves. Splattershot for most normal moves and Smashes would be unimaginative. I'd rather they show off more different weapons. Like how Snake uses actual weapons for specific Smash attacks, for example.

I think I'd personally like something like this for the Specials.

Spoiler

I'd rather see inkjet be the up special and inkstrike as the final smash. Having beacon as the up special would be extremely limiting and difficult to use against any decent player.

I am sure it could be balanced somehow, haha. I just want the Beacon to be a part of their moveset, since it'd be very unique. How about this, then. Your Up Special is always a Super Jump, but it is not a great Recovery, like, it doesn't take you THAT far. But if you have planted a Beacon before you use it, you will fly to it as a much better recovery. That way, the Inkling still has a recovery, but it can be used much better with the Beacon. ^^

I didn't go with Inkstrike mostly because I am used to those things being 'gone' now, and I'd assume Splatoon 2 to be the main focus for most items and designs. Inklings have so many potentional 'super moves' it is hard to know what would he best. I just think flying as a slower Inkjet, with aiming, and a constant exhoust downwards to prevent others from running underneath, would be more involving than a 'press and destruction occurs' Final Smash like so many are. I like the ones where you have to do more than just aim one single super attack.

I'd not mind it, of course. But to each his own. ^^

jd
Sat Feb 10 18 05:25pm
(Updated 2 times)

My ideas for smashes are basically the same idea you have for specials... the reason I put them at smashes is because 1. they're super simple; all you do is toss them. Compared to using weapons like Chargers which can be aimed while charging, or rollers which have multi-purpose abilities depending on how and when they are used, sub-weapons like sprinklers and bombs aren't at all complex making them perfect for basic attacks and 2., I didn't want all the basic abilities to just be 'pull out a gun and shoot' so this adds variety beyond adding a bunch of reskinned blasters.

I'm going to stick with Super Jump as the recover... not only does your idea sound situational (what if you put it under a solid platform? Or what if you haven't dropped one yet?) but Super Jump is an innate ability all Inklings have regardless of weaponry that everyone uses. And I'm going to stick with Inkstrike too... giant column of cyclonic ink that bypasses terrain and covers a huge area VS Diddy Kong ripoff? The former is a lot more appealing than the latter if you ask me... more unique too I think.

Finally, one idea I would consider for all characters is a power meter function, similar to Little Mac's... in the case of Inklings, my choice was the Inkzooka.

Splatoon and BOTW Link! Already got 2 things on my wish list! Hope it is a Link rework and not just a skin.

But is it actually another Link... or just a costume?

That my friend, is the million dollar question!

I think they are planning for this to be closer to a Smash 5 than Smash 4. If it was going to be a port, they probably would've announced that right away.

I also feel like if they go with 5, it would be easier for them to explain reworking Mario to add Cappy and Link to be BotW Link...complete with a new moveset.

What are your thoughts?

jd
Fri Mar 09 18 01:44am
(Updated 1 time)

Well... there really isn't much to think about... not with how little they showed us...

We know Inklings are in (...big shocker...) and we know that BotW Link is appearing in some form...

As for whether this is 5 or a port of 4... I can't say. The timing seems too soon for 5... a brand new Smash in 2018? They would have to have been working on this game for quite a while now... even before Switch was revealed... unless they just retooled 4, rather than working from the ground up as usual... if this were a 4.5 game then maybe it would work...

Port or not, this wouldn't be the first fighting game to retool characters between iterations... no need for this to be 5 to change up a character's move set...

As for the idea of a BotW Link with new moves... well, frankly I dread the idea of BotW Link being a new or unique character... the character options remain numerous beyond count and they just go and add third Link?

On the other hand, assuming this is a replacement of the standard Link... well, not so sure about a new moveset... at least, not a complete one. I can't see how they'd revamp his standard moves... the Master Sword is the thing he uses for basic fighting... what can you do to expand on that? As for his specials... maybe... trouble is, beyond axing the boomerang for something else, I can't think why they'd change up the rest of his moves... at best, his Bomb could be replaced with the Remote Bombs... but why get rid of the spin attack? Or the bow? They could be updated perhaps... give Link Urbosa's Fury... and a different kind of arrow perhaps...

In my opinion, the best the could do (and maybe should do) is make actual good use of those interchangeable special moves and give characters actual different moves instead of just "the same move, but with a different effect". In the case of Link, he could receive the Remote Bombs as an option Down B, or Urbosa's Fury as an option for his Up B, and so on...

I hope it is not a port. I like one Smash game per console. If they release a port of Smash 4 and then plan Smash 5 later on idk how I would feel about that. Hopefully this is just based on the Wii U game and modified to make it into Smash 5 for Switch.

Also, I didn't even consider how cappy Mario would work. Would he just control another player for a very limited amount of time? I really want to see what they will come up with!

Honestly, I was thinking they would just utilize the hat throw feature of cappy. Making a "capture" ability sounds really unfun to play against.

It would be basically capture and try to fall off the stage asap.

It's highly possible it's a port or like 4 takes the established Smash formula from Smash Bros Brawl. I think if that's the case I'll like that balance is reworked so that if feels like a different game, and that you have the ability to put characters as stocks like in Smash Tour.

I'll like to see characters gain new movesets based on their newer games.

Spoiler

Stages:

Spoiler

New characters:

Spoiler

Personal pick:

Spoiler

Weird character:

Spoiler

jd
Sat Mar 10 18 12:02am
(Updated 6 times)

I'll like to see characters gain new movesets based on their newer games.
Mario: Using Cappy.

Obvious idea... they could easily ax FLUDD to make room for it (I hear not many people like FLUDD anyways), but how it would work... I for one am not sure.

Link: Using the Sheikah Runes (Could keep Toon Link with the original moveset)

I don't really like this idea... since 'teen' Link is the default Link he should have the default move set... now, if they used the special move swap options to introduce alternate moves that made use of BotW moves, that would work for me.

Samus: Have the Down+B change to one of the aeion abilities.

Not so sure about changing her Down+B move; pretty sure the bombs are a common essential element of all Metroid games... that said, I personally think they need to take inspiration from Mega Man and make Samus's A move her Arm Cannon... tap to fire, hold to charge and release to fire a charge shot... they could even change her up and forward tilts to allow her to move and aim while firing. I also think they need expand on Little Mac's power meter function and give such a thing to other characters... going with these ideas, that's two vacant move slots for Samus.

Palutena: Should have a better base moveset since many of her alternates were better. Especially her deafault B should be the explosive blast instead of the reticle.

Definitely agree with this... most of Palutena's alternate moves were better than the default. Speaking of alternate moves, as suggested with Link, they really need to improve on this idea with actual unique moves, not just 'the default move, but with extra effects'.

I think ARMS has a shot, though I would like if it's not Springman or Ribbon Girl, IMO everyone else has more interesting designs. Twintelle feels like the most popular choice.

Twintelle? The most popular choice? ...do you say this because of her style... or her... you know... assets... ... ...and I do mean assets. Twintelle is nice and all, but beyond her slow down power she doesn't have much separating her from the others if you ask me; I mean, like most other characters she's all about punching... with her hair, but still... punching.

For ARMS characters I'd have to go with Min Min myself... martial arts moves and a laser breathing dragon arm set her well apart from the other characters...

I think Elma as a gunslinger could be like a variation on Zero Suit Samus. Maybe a heavier version of that playstyle.

I do like Elma... but I can't help but feel like other characters, like Saki from Sin & Punishment, could pull off the same thing and yet represent more...

If it's from Xenoblade 2, maybe Rex and Pyra as a Persona type of fighter with Rex being the one controlled and Pyra appearing to do strong attacks.

My idea for Rex was allow him to swap between Pyra and Mythra with Down+B; they'd have the same move set, but different attributes. His neutral B would be Blade Arts and work like they do in Xeno2; inflict damage to raise their level, press B to had the weapon to the Blade to attack... both Pyra and Mythra would have a unique set of Blade Arts as well.

Just for the sake of it, I'll like Medusa or Hades as playable character, mainly to have more villains. Medusa could play similarly to Palutena and have a different set of base moves and be the slower but stronger type.

I'd go with Medusa myself; she's done more for the franchise (2 games), is the dark counterpart to Palutena's light (Medusa is the goddess of Darkness and Palutena is the goddess of Light), and Hades is more chatty than combative. As for fighting, she doesn't have to play that similarly to Palutena... one idea I had involved her smash attacks creating portals to the underworld and summoning minions to fight for her... like her Down Smash would summon a pair of Mik to bite, or her Side Smash would summon a Monoeye to blast lasers at her opponents. Her Final Smash could involve a portal that sends caught opponents to the underworld, where they confront her at full size and in cyclopean form, then get blasted by a giant eye laser.

The Plasmwraith from Pikmin 3 as a boss.

I actually had an idea of him as a playable character... he'd be half his normal size to start, and attack as he does in Pikmin 3. As he attacks his body comes apart and he gets smaller, weakening his attacks but making him quicker. Press Down+B to recall his missing parts and return to normal size. His Fnal Smash involves growing to full size, inflicting more damage with each attack, but he can't recall the extra lost parts.

Glad to have my Inklings in the game. I trust Sakurai to be creative with them and have them use as many different weapons as possible. Can't wait. ^^

Now I just have to wait for Ridley. I really hope Samus' design will change to her Samus Returns version as well, since her suit is always designed from the latest Sakamoto game, I believe.

I expect to not see any gameplay until E3, where I am sure Nintendo will have a huge, epic tournament.

Do you think it will be a new game, or a port?

I'm leaning towards them calling it Smash 5, but being heavily based on Smash 4, as that gameplay felt really good.

I think they will have one more direct between now and E3 (maybe late April or late May) where we get another character reveal trailer, but like Splatoon, no gameplay.

Going by all the info from official sources and insiders, I will say this will heavily be very new, but still having the basic skeleton of Smash 4. It seems Sakurai has worked on this for almost two and a half year, and have had well enough time to make a basically-brand-new Smash. So, it will be built on Smash 4, but rather than like with Mario Kart, where they took what they had and put 'more stuff' in it, I think Smash witch will take what they have, put more stuff in it, AND change existing stuff a lot, so much so that they can call it a full-on sequel.

With the new style of CGi, the new logo, and the faint new theme song you can hear, and with all the other things we have heard, I am positive it will be a 'brand new' Smash with a proper name. If it was gonna be 'Smash for Switch' I doubt they'd even bother having a 'tentative title'.

That is what I believe, at least. ^^ And yeah, I COULD see another non-gameplay reveal before E3, but I do believe we'll only see proper gameplay at E3, and I am sure there will be a epic tournament like last time. ^^ It was very hype, and a great way for Nintendo to, well, hype up their conferance.

If we get another non-gameplay reveal, I will predict either a expected one (Spring Man), or, Crash Bandicoot, to be honest.

I have already seen a lot, and I mean a LOOOOT, of people downright dismissing Mii Fighters all together because one reason or another, and second right behind them is Wii Fit Trainer.

It's like the series and franchises only matter if the person that sees it as a "game" or "successful" if they liked it. As if their success never mattered. That's an entire generation and a half we're talking about.

In that same breathe, champion elusive franchises from Nintendo's long past. As if their lack of success never mattered. That's a game or two we're talking about.

It literally boggles my mind how elitist that comes off. Seriously, that level of attitude trumps any Ridley debate, any No Items debate. It's downright toxic to speak about them.

I am going to digress for a moment here, but I did like the kit WFT brought to the table, she was definitely fun to play. Mii Fighters, well I believe they could been something more, something... Valuable to the roster, and them being dismissed to offline only terms only made them a novelty at best.

I may not like them as characters, but honestly to ignore them is basically to state Nintendo should pretend the Wii era never existed (which I am certain several would be okay with).

jd
Tue Mar 13 18 01:04am
(Updated 3 times)

I have already seen a lot, and I mean a LOOOOT, of people downright dismissing Mii Fighters all together because one reason or another, and second right behind them is Wii Fit Trainer.

This sort of thing always happens... I seem to recall Ice Climbers and Game & Watch getting this treatment a lot back during Brawl's development.

It's like the series and franchises only matter if the person that sees it as a "game" or "successful" if they liked it. As if their success never mattered. That's an entire generation and a half we're talking about.

Well... the concept of success can certainly be debated... I mean, how many people bought Wii Fit and then actually made a long-term use of it... and how many of those people also play Smash? As for Miis, well, it doesn't help that their most common appearances were as novelty playable characters in various spin-offs and mini-game collections... their big starring roles were a bit more infrequent; Miitopia and two Tomodatchi games are the only ones I can think of. Also doesn't help that Miis are no longer front and center with the Switch and Miitomo was killed off quick, which suggests to some that Nintendo may be moving away from them...

In that same breathe, champion elusive franchises from Nintendo's long past. As if their lack of success never mattered. That's a game or two we're talking about.

Ice Climbers, Pit, Duck Hunt Dog... and we could probably toss a few others in there too... looking at the actual roster, how much these things actually matter is a subject of debate... furthermore, it seems a lot of people are of the opinion that a Smash appearance may result in a Kid Icarus: Uprising-type resurgence...

It literally boggles my mind how elitist that comes off. Seriously, that level of attitude trumps any Ridley debate, any No Items debate. It's downright toxic to speak about them.

I dunno about that man... people say they're Ridley fans, but then basically say "I would gladly tear Ridley down into something he is not to get him into Smash"... that's backwards logic, even in the best of situations.

I am going to digress for a moment here, but I did like the kit WFT brought to the table, she was definitely fun to play.

I liked her too... but I can't help but feel she's a bit beyond my suspension of disbelief... summoning a ball of energy with Sunrise Salutation and flying with Hoola Hoops... I know it has no real relevance here, but I'm a natural nitpicker, and for most characters that make me feel that way, I can at least envision a way to change them, but Wii Fit Trainer... she's a lot harder to work with...

Mii Fighters, well I believe they could been something more, something... Valuable to the roster, and them being dismissed to offline only terms only made them a novelty at best.

The problem with Mii Fighters is that they take absolutely no inspiration from the games that star Miis and instead turned them into a generic create-a-character system that quickly lose any novelty they may have... it probably doesn't help that they became Smash 4's "fighting [blank] team" characters... polygons, wireframes, alloys... Miis... the first three were loosely based on various other fighters, the fourth was a generic create-a-character...

I may not like them as characters, but honestly to ignore them is basically to state Nintendo should pretend the Wii era never existed (which I am certain several would be okay with).

Is that really true though? It's not like they're the only things to come from the Wii era... Xenoblade being a particularly good one.

Furthermore, is that really a good reason to include them? It's like these people who insist Kirby needs a modern representative to represent modern Kirby games... one, is "representing a particular era" truly a good enough reason alone to add a character? And two, don't the long-term characters (Mario, Kirby, Link, and so on) who also took part in that era represent that era as well? I know they didn't originate in it... but they still played a pretty big part in it, and those parts represent that era as well...

So going to avoid trying to respond entirely off this in individual segments (namely cause my brain cannot process all of the micromanaging it has, since I have extensive workloads this week). So this may come off at random, just saying.

You cannot deny that Miis and Wii Fit (along with other Wii "X" games) were pivotal in the success for the Wii and Nintendo at large, far more than anything Xenoblade hoped to achieve in it's franchise lifespan. Nothing can wipe away what they mean as a success for Nintendo with both those intellectual properties. Both made money, and a LOT of it. Xenoblade did not.

And if long-term characters count to represent eras, as an example, then why even wish to have Splatoon when Mario is good enough? That's the point I was getting at. It's basically gatekeeping as what counts for a "game" in one individual's eyes. Saying "Who even plays X anymore?" is dismissal of any importance to it, and I am certain Wii Fit still gets some form of legs just on usage somewhere, it's not like a story driven game where once it's all done... It's done. Yet, that never mattered about Link's legacy of games, nor Mario's, Kirby's or... Literally anyone else. I mean, it's anecdotal... But I use it once a week for an hour.

I liked her too... but I can't help but feel she's a bit beyond my suspension of disbelief... summoning a ball of energy with Sunrise Salutation and flying with Hoola Hoops... I know it has no real relevance here, but I'm a natural nitpicker, and for most characters that make me feel that way, I can at least envision a way to change them, but Wii Fit Trainer... she's a lot harder to work with...

Captain. Falcon. Literally that guy just existing in the roster tosses that whole theory and belief on its head.

The problem with Mii Fighters is that they take absolutely no inspiration from the games that star Miis and instead turned them into a generic create-a-character system that quickly lose any novelty they may have... it probably doesn't help that they became Smash 4's "fighting [blank] team" characters... polygons, wireframes, alloys... Miis... the first three were loosely based on various other fighters, the fourth was a generic create-a-character...

The problem isn't that they couldn't come up with a unique moveset based off their game (once again; Captain Falcon), their problem was more that they are treated as a novelty act across the board. Beyond Smash even. Though, they were oddities in of themselves. They as a franchise got people hooked with certain features in various games (even so being used now). So how can you technically make something definitive in literally everything they are, is practically anything?

Though sidenote: If they come back I would more hope for a take on their Mii Plaza games and their approach, since they came post SSB4.

And them being a major player in Nintendo's 6+ years of success should definitely warrant how they're treated in the roster. I mean, there is a difference when it comes to "modern characters" and "modern franchises." We got lightning rats up against hard-edged militants before, but a fitness instructor is where we draw the line? The reasoning against them is more outlandish than the idea itself at this point.

And as a Kirby fanatic (favorite character of all time), I am quite content with the roster of Kirby bros right now. I don't think anyone has made a genuine impact in recent years like the three we got (but a few ATs would be nice).

jd
Wed Mar 14 18 02:58am
(Updated 1 time)

You cannot deny that Miis and Wii Fit (along with other Wii "X" games) were pivotal in the success for the Wii and Nintendo at large, far more than anything Xenoblade hoped to achieve in it's franchise lifespan. Nothing can wipe away what they mean as a success for Nintendo with both those intellectual properties. Both made money, and a LOT of it. Xenoblade did not.

But, again, the concept of success is debatable... sure, it can be argued that the Wii made money and that things like Wii Fit helped (not sure how the Miis helped, beyond maybe their novelty drawing interest... it's not like they were integral to most games they appeared in) but at the same time, there's a reason why a lot of people say "people only bought the Wii for Wii Sports"... which is hyperbole, but the fact remains, a lot of people who bought a Wii only bought it games like Wii Sports or Wii Fit, while many of the other games that hit the platform sold barely a fraction of these titles... which begs the question: if everyone bought a Wii, and ignored 99% (again, being hyperbolic) of the games made for it, is that still a success?

And while we're on the talk of success of a franchise, is it worth noting Wii Fit U apparently sold less than a million units total? If that's true, that would be less than Xenoblade 2 sales. Sure, one could argue it was the failure of the Wii U to catch on... but it could also be argued that Wii Fit succeeded because of novelty, and that novelty died... either way, it doesn't appear to be the big money maker it was back in the day...

And if long-term characters count to represent eras, as an example, then why even wish to have Splatoon when Mario is good enough?

You seem to have overlooked a piece of my statement; the part where I questioned 'is "representing a particular era" truly a good enough reason alone to add a character?'... key words 'good enough reason alone'... there are many things that can be considered when it comes to characters; one thing in particular that I think about a lot is "what does the character bring to Smash that is unique"... the point I'm trying to make is, if they don't have anything that makes them stand out (Miis... generic create-a-yadda-yadda) then why add them? Why add a character to 'represent an era' if that's all they have going for them? Especially since there are many ways to represent something besides adding a playable character specific to it...

Yet, that never mattered about Link's legacy of games, nor Mario's, Kirby's or... Literally anyone else.

Thing is, people still play the old games all the time as well... re-releases and remakes are a thing, and people keep buying them. And unlike Wii Fit, people don't have to be strongly motivated to play them... they just need to be lazy... which a lot of them are... which may be one the reasons Wii Fit may no longer be the big seller it was during the Wii era...

Captain. Falcon. Literally that guy just existing in the roster tosses that whole theory and belief on its head.

I honestly don't see how you came to that conclusion... even before Smash, Falcon was described as a bounty hunter and I believe at least one source refered to him as a 'street fighter'. And even if that wasn't the case, just look at him... pretty sure F-Zero characters were designed to emulate comic-book superheroes; it would be weird if he couldn't put up a good fight. Honestly the only oddity of his largely basic punching and kicking brawler-based move set is his use of flaming punches and kicks... which is about as odd as Fox using a flaming booster attack (which he of course totally uses)...

As for your claim of debunking my point of view... you failed miserably at that. Actually, I think my problem with her is that her more outlandish abilities don't match her 'normal' character... she uses real-world yoga skills, and that somehow produces a magical ball of light projectile? That'd be like Marth launching missiles from his sword... there's no logical explanation for it and they're not characters from franchises that make use of unexplainable weirdness (like DK's ability to jump after rolling into a pit because 'we kongs can defy gravity' as Cranky put it... which makes no sense, but then neither does most of the stuff in a DK game)...

The problem isn't that they couldn't come up with a unique moveset based off their game (once again; Captain Falcon), their problem was more that they are treated as a novelty act across the board. Beyond Smash even. Though, they were oddities in of themselves. They as a franchise got people hooked with certain features in various games (even so being used now). So how can you technically make something definitive in literally everything they are, is practically anything?

I'm horrified to ask... but it almost sounds like you're suggesting Miis are generic create-a-characters in Smash because they've long been treated as generic extras in most games they appear in... and that they should stay that way...

And as a Kirby fanatic (favorite character of all time), I am quite content with the roster of Kirby bros right now. I don't think anyone has made a genuine impact in recent years like the three we got (but a few ATs would be nice).

Nice to know... to bad this sentiment isn't universal though. Sadly, there seems to be a shockingly high demand for that one Waddle Dee with a spear... which, I honestly don't understand. It's like when people were saying 'add Magnus from Kid Icarus'... he's a D List, one-trick-pony character, whose biggest claim to fame is an occasional playable role... and the alternative options are both plentiful and quite a bit more significant than a bottom tier baddy with a spear.

berrix
Wed Mar 14 18 03:57pm
(Updated 1 time)

But, again, the concept of success is debatable...

This, this, right here... Is what I am getting at when I say hand-waving and dismissal. No other games get to contend with "What is "success" really?" and "What is a "game" really?" counter debates, only Mii and WFT seem to have a LOT of that against them. It comes off as elitism, "What value is you "opinion" really?"

But aside that, Yes, Wii Fit did actually keep a momentum going, cause namely a lot of the Blue Ocean market was there when the general gaming public was not. And from it came WFT, whether you like it or not, it's as much a character as ROB and Mr. G&W. Both of which don't have "games" of themselves, per se, either.

Success is measured in a variety of ways, not just units sold, not just populous opinion, it's literally a multi-faceted thing. And yes, sequels on the Wii U did not meet expectations of its Wii predecessors. Not even Mario could take Galaxy on in sales. Yet 3D World was a success in the long term, and technically so was Wii Fit U (namely cause a lot of assets were essentially recycled and the hidden tech of the original came to fruition with the pedometer). They were not large successes, but they were noteworthy for a time where Wii U was being... Wii U.

And honestly, I would have wagered not many IPs were going to fair well.

I honestly don't see how you came to that conclusion... even before Smash, Falcon was described as a bounty hunter and I believe at least one source refered to him as a 'street fighter'. And even if that wasn't the case, just look at him... pretty sure F-Zero characters were designed to emulate comic-book superheroes; it would be weird if he couldn't put up a good fight. Honestly the only oddity of his largely basic punching and kicking brawler-based move set is his use of flaming punches and kicks... which is about as odd as Fox using a flaming booster attack (which he of course totally uses)...

My point was that we literally knew nothing of how he works, what he did, how anything that Smash made him into was going to be prior to its release. We could have placed bets, but I can guarantee you as of right now, if Capt. Falcon was not in the game yet, our arguments would be along the lines of how he would been a thing cause all he does is drive.

Hell, his anime was made based of what he does in Smash.

That'd be like Marth launching missiles from his sword...

Yet Roy's blows right the hell up, and that's not even in his, or his child's game.

I'm horrified to ask... but it almost sounds like you're suggesting Miis are generic create-a-characters in Smash because they've long been treated as generic extras in most games they appear in... and that they should stay that way...

Probably you're misunderstanding; As of Smash 4 Miis took a more novelty act in a lot of games (and they were a success, as it was a "Nintendo" way of doing a personal avatar and placing you in their games without literally doing just that), so it probably would been a complicated mess to find something that defined Miis the way that would be fitting. Something like that came along AFTER Smash, with Mii Plaza taking on a massive array of fun little games, and in tow with Miitopia. Not saying they're doomed to be novelty (but I am saying that was one of the reasons it catches flack for being a character). Miis are unique in the way that they are hugely flexible, and that strength is also a weakness when creating something defining. Wii Fighters lacked that definition in Smash. It's arguable if they can be treated differently now.

Nice to know... to bad this sentiment isn't universal though.

See, I don't want to pick on you about this wording, but this comes off as I am now "approved" to have a proper opinion because mine align with yours about Kirby, that comes off as pompous, and will probably lead to some arguments.

People will always like one-dimensional characters that appear once, and there is a natural reason for it. They serve as a foil to deeper characters, sometimes comic relief, sometimes the pivotal key to main character development. It's why Magnus is so well liked, but the flaws in that is that when exposed to too much of it, they start wearing thin quickly, great example in gaming; Rabbids.

The issue is no one can really TELL that well why they like these characters because of of that, namely cause it has to do with the bias for or against them (it works both ways). So Geno, Magnus, Bandana Dee... All these guys never served a core impactful purpose except push the main characters forward. It's not that the people like them have WRONG opinions, but it is likely they're on the high of their favorite character and the dreams of them being a reality.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I like Bandana Dee, but he's been in what? 3 games? And it's often as an answer for a fourth character option? That's like voting for the two Toads in NSMB series. Until he's considered as something stronger than what Dedede used to throw around by Nintendo themselves, I would hope he doesn't make a playable cut.

My point was that we literally knew nothing of how he works, what he did, how anything that Smash made him into was going to be prior to its release

Except, you know, the whole "bounty hunter, street fighter" part... pretty easy to assume he could at least throw a punch or a kick... furthermore, this sort of thinking could be applied to most any character, considering most all of them need some part of their move set to be made up for Smash...

In any case, I think we're straying away from the point... didn't this whole thing start as a result of me saying I find the Wii Fit Trainer's move set to be a bit unbelievable? ...don't see how this really correlates to that...

Yet Roy's blows right the hell up, and that's not even in his, or his child's game.

Pretty sure you mean his father's; I'm no Fire Emblem expert, but his father Eliwood is the one with the game... I don't think Roy even has a son...

As for your point; it's a magic sword from game about medieval magic and monsters... what more logic do you need? And before you bring up what I said about Marth, I only used him because he's a fairly basic swordsman with no projectiles, and even with magic, real-world missiles would still be a bit out of place. There are probably other examples I could have gone with, but regardless, the point is the same: Wii Fit Trainer is a relatively realistic character using realistic yoga moves, not a DBZ character... summoning a ball of energy seems out of character...

See, I don't want to pick on you about this wording, but this comes off as I am now "approved" to have a proper opinion because mine align with yours about Kirby, that comes off as pompous, and will probably lead to some arguments.

That wasn't the idea...

The issue is no one can really TELL that well why they like these characters because of of that, namely cause it has to do with the bias for or against them (it works both ways). So Geno, Magnus, Bandana Dee... All these guys never served a core impactful purpose except push the main characters forward. It's not that the people like them have WRONG opinions, but it is likely they're on the high of their favorite character and the dreams of them being a reality.

Personally, I wouldn't lump Geno in with Magnus or Bandana Dee... there's a lot of things to consider when thinking about characters, and I can think of a few things that would probably put him somewhere above them...

*sigh* ... I think one of the problems here--and this goes for the debate over any character; Wii Fit Trainer and Miis as well--is that there are quite of few aspects that should be considered when thinking about what characters to include, and yet we all seem to be focusing on just one or two of them... sadly, Sakurai's own decision making seems a bit lacking anymore--Greninja was added because it "looked cool" and Cloud got in because he wanted a Final Fantasy character and Cloud was popular... this certainly doesn't help anything...

Personally, I wouldn't lump Geno in with Magnus or Bandana Dee... there's a lot of things to consider when thinking about characters, and I can think of a few things that would probably put him somewhere above them...

Not intentional, but they all have the similar traits of being very 1 dimensional. Their characteristics is very flat and serves some purpose to the story, character, or game as a whole. Their exposure isn't planned to be very deep from the get go. I doubt many can take 5-6 hours of playing gruff Magnus the entire time being gruffy mcgruff, but served pretty handedly with Pit's more innocent characteristics, which is why people like him.

People just like Bandana Dee cause is so damn cute.

*sigh* ... I think one of the problems here--and this goes for the debate over any character; Wii Fit Trainer and Miis as well--is that there are quite of few aspects that should be considered when thinking about what characters to include, and yet we all seem to be focusing on just one or two of them... sadly, Sakurai's own decision making seems a bit lacking anymore--Greninja was added because it "looked cool" and Cloud got in because he wanted a Final Fantasy character and Cloud was popular... this certainly doesn't help anything...

Greninja actually was considered not just cause he looked cool, but he apparently has taken over popularity in Japan, rivaling that of Pikachu. Hard not to consider it with such a reception. FF was based on a popularity poll (which was sort of skewed, since it consisted of defined characters, and not classes or races that are consistent in each game (EI: No "Black Mage")). I would been cooler, in my eyes, if they went more with a classic character, similar to how Mario Hoops did.

jd
Fri Mar 16 18 02:06am
(Updated 4 times)

Not intentional, but they all have the similar traits of being very 1 dimensional. Their characteristics is very flat and serves some purpose to the story, character, or game as a whole. Their exposure isn't planned to be very deep from the get go.

I never actually played Mario RPG, but I always thought Geno was a somewhat deeper character, what with him being the agent sent from some higher authority to pursue Smithy... and even if that wasn't the case, is it really fair to judge him being one-dimensional, since most Mario characters and even Nintendo characters in general are pretty one-dimensional? ...at least he played a fairly major role pertaining to the game's plot...

Greninja actually was considered not just cause he looked cool, but he apparently has taken over popularity in Japan, rivaling that of Pikachu.

Pretty sure this is not the case at all... as I recall, Pokemon X/Y were still in development while Smash 4 was being made, and Greninja hadn't even been revealed to the public when he had been chosen for inclusion... can't be mister popular if no one knows you exist. Greninja's popularity has only risen since its inclusion in Smash, which begs the question: is it popular for its own merit, or was its unexpected appearance in Smash that created its fandom? I mean, look at the recent Fire Emblem fan poll... most of the top rated characters were also Smash characters... I really doubt that's a coincidence. And then there's the question of how long that popularity will hold out... Greninja won that poll before Gen 7 was officially revealed; is he still the favorite, or have people moved on? And will they move on (again?) when the inevitable Gen 8 is released?

Is now a good time to mention that Jigglypuff, which supposedly once rivaled Pikachu for popularity as well, only managed 49th place? That makes it the lowest scoring playable Pokemon in Smash by a wide margin, with Lucario coming in at 15th, followed by Mewtwo at 11th, Charizard at 9th, and Pikachu at 4th. And in case someone is thinking about responding with "it was in the first game, it can't be cut, it's tradition" please don't... that's terrible logic any way you look at it...

FF was based on a popularity poll (which was sort of skewed, since it consisted of defined characters, and not classes or races that are consistent in each game (EI: No "Black Mage")). I would been cooler, in my eyes, if they went more with a classic character, similar to how Mario Hoops did.

I don't really recall any sort of popularity poll... was it ever mentioned here on GoNintendo? I know it's been a while since I read about how Cloud got included, but I'm still fairly certain Sakurai's story was "I wanted a Final Fantasy character and Cloud is popular so I added him"... as if it were some form of fanboyish whim that made it happen...

*Rereads statement* Wait a minute... was this poll about franchises or Final Fantasy characters? Because now that I look at it, it sounds like it was the latter, in which case how does it apply to my claim? Or are you just trying to imply that Cloud only won the popular contest because the generic class characters of the older titles were omitted?

I never actually played Mario RPG, but I always thought Geno was a somewhat deeper character, what with him being the agent sent from some higher authority to pursue Smithy... and even if that wasn't the case, is it really fair to judge him being one-dimensional, since most Mario characters and even Nintendo characters in general are pretty one-dimensional? ...at least he played a fairly major role pertaining to the game's plot...

One dimensional characters can often time have a pivotal role in a story. Fawful is a main villain and still can be argued his role in a plot was very one dimensional. But Mario games tend to be very "hollow" (in a good way) in terms of character personalities, so Fawful can be argued for and against often (though I'd lean towards an appearance outside playability, but he definitely needs to appear more in M&L games). Geno technically falls into that category; His attitude is very much one personality, his focus and story is purely driven on that one particular thing, and there was nothing for him outside that goal.

Not saying that it's a good or bad thing, just that it's a thing that happens. And often they appear as a counter or foil to an existing character with depth that it's refreshing. And because it's so fleeting in an experience, people want more of them. And for Geno, compared to Mallow, acted as a "cool guy with attitude" in the game, just not in the direct sense of the phrase. And because of that people want him and want more of him.

This can be done with Waluigi as well (and why I advocate him as a villain duo with Wario in a Mario main game more than I do in Smash).

Pretty sure this is not the case at all... as I recall, Pokemon X/Y were still in development while Smash 4 was being made, and Greninja hadn't even been revealed to the public when he had been chosen for inclusion... can't be mister popular if no one knows you exist.

Two problems with that, though, and both have to do with assumption.

1) Thinking Sakurai did not have prior knowledge of the characters within the new Pokemon game at the time of Smash's conception. Which can easily be rectified with him clearly working with Game Freak and Pokemon Co for the other characters to see the desire of Greninja.

2) Assuming that all characters, options and otherwise choices were all simultaneously chosen and developed on a parallel development table. All it takes is Nintendo to show of X/Y and Sakurai enjoying what he sees in Greninja to decide on working with it mid-development.

*Rereads statement* Wait a minute... was this poll about franchises or Final Fantasy characters? Because now that I look at it, it sounds like it was the latter, in which case how does it apply to my claim? Or are you just trying to imply that Cloud only won the popular contest because the generic class characters of the older titles were omitted?

Somewhat correct. Square had some FF celebration event and they made a poll a year or so prior to Smash being a known thing in existence. Most characters were defined solitary characters, and not an over-arching themed character like Black Mage. If I remember correctly, only a Mitoq'ue was listed, and it was represented as the entire race. Cloud clearly took over most of the votes entirely.

Since the game is almost certanly a New game (probably with assets taken from Smash 4/5, but it seems the game is very much 'new'), and with the seemingly default Link being Breath of The Wild inspired (even right handed and with a visible bow on his back) I will guess that the veterans will change quite a bit. I think Link will be heavily altered, but I expect Toon Link to remain a lot like he is as a way to keep the old Zelda moveset. Same thing with Dr. Mario maybe keeping the old Mario style while Mario gets big changes.

Been thinking about a new Final Smash for Mario. Activating a short cutscene showing Mario capturing a T-Rex and then getting to control said Rex would be very cool.

I also demand a 'Mode' where every character has Mario's mustache.

I mean you could change a character who has a clone and change one or the other.

Mario/Dr. Mario/Luigi
Captain Falcon/Ganondorf
Pit/Dark Pit (Pittoo)
Link /Toon Link
Marth/Lucina/Roy
Lucario/Mewtwo
Fox /Falco
Ness/Lucas (Mainly the B- specials could be more distinct)

Also Final Smashes since they're not competitive, could really be changed just to refresh that aspect of the games. Maybe just keeping ones best reflecting the characters personalities.

Mewtwo and Lucario are not clones... the only thing they have in common is a similar B move, and lots of characters are like that, having at least one move that is similar to a move on another character... the rest is entirely different. They don't even follow the same basic premise; one is "spiritual martial-artist" and the other is "dark uber telekinetic".

As for MasterofMonster's comment on move changes, I have doubts on how much Link will change... I can't see his main move set getting much alteration; he's got the Master Sword, what else does he need? The presence of a bow suggests his B remains, and I can't imagine they'd change his Up+B either, beyond maybe implementing Urbosa's Fury... I could see them giving him remote bombs as his Down+B, but they'd still be bombs... really, only his Side+B strikes me as something that could get changed...

I suppose is the aura and psychic powers what make them look kind of similar. Since both have energy based moves that engulf the opponent in some sort of energy. They have different pace though.

I mean maybe the bow could work like Samus's missiles and have a weak and strong arrow with any given timing. The boomerang could change for the cryonis, maybe like Greninja's shadow attack lifting a pillar at a certain range. Bombs could maybe hit a bit harder or do more damage, and to compensate for that, maybe having a cooldown like the bombs in BotW.

Yeah, Lucario and Mewtwo only have one thing in common, and that is a charge-able Neutral Special for a glowy orb move. If you'd say they are clones, then Samus and Cpt. Falcon has to be clones for having the same Up Tilt, or Peach and Ness for having the same Neutral Air. :p Silly Vonter.

I do think Link have a big possibility to change. BOTW seems to the 'biggest Zelda ever', so much so that Sakurai went with his BOTW look instead of his traditional green tunic (which I am sure will be a alt for him, tho). And if Toon Link stays sorta like he is, then Sakurai can keep that moveset through Tink. Plenty of people have been a bit tired of characters like Link and Mario feeling a bit boring after all these games. Maybe it is time for them to change.
Same with Mario if Doc keeps his older moveset.

I know character predictions are the most discussed thing with any Smash. But I'll like to step back and ask, how could stages improve. Either by having a better selection or predicting what new stages could use to not only look great but also play great. I think it's also hard to do considering mods of stages from what I've seen are just ok. I've never heard someone would like a mod stage to have been in a official Smash.

Given they're a lot of stages and it'll make a book to explain all, maybe just mentioning the 3 best of each game.

Spoiler

Predictions:

Spoiler

Sorry for the long post but I think this is an aspect that needs to improve, since despite getting more and more levels, I think the ratio of enjoyable stages has become smaller with every new game. We like to see series represented but I think many new stages have been better ideas on paper than in execution. And despite of the possibility of a hazard toggles, things like moving stages, scrolling stages, or mammoth size stages aren't things that could be solved with that.

The “yep” reply from Microsoft regarding Banjo Kazooie in Smash got me thinking that a Minecraft type character is probably more likely.

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