Miyamoto pegs StarFox Zero, Pikmin 3 as his most underrated Wii U games

Coming from a Game Informer interview with Shigeru Miyamoto...

“I think personally Star Fox is a really fun game if you sit down and play it. I think, for example, an elementary school kid who plays it without any preconceived notions, I think it would be really fun for them. I think it’s also really, really fun for siblings to play it together."

Coming from Bill Trinen...

“Personally, I think Pikmin 3 is the most amazing game on Wii U. It’s probably one of my favorite games in the last six or seven years. I think that hardly anyone realizes that the multiplayer bingo battle mode was literally the best new multiplayer mode that has been created since Smash Bros. It is so much fun.”

Coming from Shigeru Miyamoto...

“Pikmin is the kind of game that you have to play maybe three times to get the full effect, but you know, people don’t have a lot of time, so they just clear the stage and just move on. Games are becoming more of a consumable product, and it’s getting harder and harder for people to let a game to sink in and enjoy leisurely.”


Top Rated Comment
Sun Jul 03 16 03:13pm
Rating: 3 (Updated 1 time)

Pikmin 3 is a masterpiece, no doubt about it. Star Fox requires people to learn a new way to play, and it is a lot of fun once you do learn it. People just want to jump in, beat the game, and move on to the next. Star Fox 0 is not a game for this generation. It's a game with modern technology, but old sensibilities.

Sun Jul 03 16 02:09pm
Rating: 1

I definitely agree with the Pikmin 3 statements, that game is a low key masterpiece. Shame it didn't sell as well as it should have. Just thinking about how great it is really makes me hyped for 4. Star Fox on the other hand...eh. I don't see how a child would find controls like that easy to pick up and play.

Star Fox on the other hand...eh. I don't see how a child would find controls like that easy to pick up and play.

Wii may never know.

As if the N64 controller was that dramatic, or even close to comparable. lol

It was also new, and it didn't even ended as an ideal control scheme for some of it's games.

I suppose it's also the expectations and standards that make it hard to understand most unconventional means of controls. Everything feels like it must be the same, which is kind of boring IMO. At the very least I'll welcome having both a standard and an alternate control next time.

For me, the issue wasn't that it was different. I like different, and I was excited about the changes. But, ultimately, it was the execution of many of the concepts that kept me from enjoying it as much as I'd have liked to.

To be honest I think that as well, but perhaps for different reasons. The main issue I've see with this franchise as time goes on, its that it becomes harder and harder to justify full price for it. Since at its best, the pacing is fast and cuts a lot of fat to just bring one set action piece after the other without stretching it too long to feel tiring (that's something that came from time to time in Kid Icarus and Sin and Punishment). Zero its noticeable where they just added filler levels to increase the size of the game in a cheap way and it's worst main level was Zoness since its perhaps the longest and most drag out level (which was the case for most Assault levels).

I suppose, perhaps this series should take a page from Splatoon and add depth to multiplayer mode and keep brief but cool the single player campaign.

I enjoyed Zoness, but it was a big on the long side.

A robust multiplayer mode in Star Fox Zero is possibly the biggest missed opportunity of the Wii U!

I suppose in general SFZ was a missed opportunity to revitalize the franchise. However it's obvious because on how linked it was to the Wii U's gamepad that when eventually moved on, they didn't want to invest as much in a game that will not changed anything regardless if did turn out great.

I do agree with this, however. There was nowhere near enough content in the game to justify a $60 price tag.

Even though it had more levels than EA's Battlefront.

Which is something that game gets critiqued for as well

Sun Jul 03 16 06:46pm
Rating: 1

Sorry, but that comparison doesn't really work. The N64 has a weird controller, definitely, but with a game like Super Mario 64, the controls work beautifully and controlling Mario is readily apparent and accessible to anyone. The way Mario handles, jumps, runs, everything is fine tuned to work in tandem with N64 due to the game being developed alongside the system. There's nothing to really master and there's no steep learning curve, unlike Star Fox. Can any of this be said for Star Fox Zero? Unfortunately, no.

To be fair every Nintendo controller is specifically made to work as its best with Mario. Even Mario Maker.

I think the difficulty curve in 64 was in the middle range, but it's so long that's hard to remember it clearly. I mean up until Zero I think I didn't even master 64 since I didn't knew it also had L-cancel or a secret route in Sector X.

I'll accept Zero can have annoying gameplay decisions. I don't think it's hard to play. Souls games are well made, but I think even those are harder "to get". By design.

Mon Jul 04 16 01:48am
(Updated 1 time)

Okay, real talk? I never got the "How do you hold it?" jokes lobbed at the N64 controller. Yeah, it looks weird as hell, but it not hard to figure out. Middle and right for most games. If that doesn't work, then try the D-pad. Bam. You playing Nintendo. Got that down when I was five. (Five-year-old me did make the mistake of ripping the red RCA connector off the set of cables though, since one of the TVs I played my N64 on was mono. So I thought that the red connector was unneeded. Still have yet to replace it...) XP

As for the topic at hand, total agreement on Pikmin 3. Lack of underground caves aside, Pikmin 3 is a great entry that surpasses the previous two. Star Fox Zero, on the other hand, is a very mixed bag. It's not a terrible game, per se (I enjoy it), but it is severely overdeveloped. What could have been a few novel Gamepad ideas if used separately becomes an odd control scheme with a high barrier for entry when used together. It's really strange, and complex controls is the last thing you think of when you think Star Fox, much less Nintendo as a developer in and of itself.

I know better now. But back in the day 3D, a controller way different from the SNES or Genesis, etc. It was a lot of stuff, even more when N64 still retained a bit of the difficulty of some SNES games. Before the GC brought full fledged tutorials to almost every genre.

I still haven't played Pikmin 2 so all this comments mentioning 3 missed some good aspects from that game fly over my head. I mean, it did looked exactly the same as Pikmin 1. My assumption is like with Golden Sun Dark Dawn, Pikmin 3 focuses more heavily to the puzzles than the combat, which in a way makes it easier since aside from the last area the challenge mainly came from how to manage the fruit collection in each level. With the unknown big creature appearing from time to time.

I ado agree on your comment with Zero. It feels like Nintendo released an experiment on them trying to create something out of the hardware rather than the hardware adding something to the game. I do think taking the controls aside Zero did add some refinements I appreciate, more vehicles to play around, each controlling differently, separating the arwing's movement and aiming makes the game more interesting, more precise, and gives more opportunity to ramp up the score. And while still debatable it makes me reflect if the second stick could be replaced with something else since we've have had over the years several other options being more precise, gyro, and IR aiming, and the mouse. I think that's the only thing it did make me question about why not having a standard control, I don't think it'll have been better. (unless it was super incredibly sensitive).

Mon Jul 04 16 02:25pm
(Updated 1 time)

I have no idea how to properly explain my love for the underground areas of Pikmin 2. I wouldn't say that it was combat-focused, but the farther along you get the game, the more you're forced to think about how to deal with enemies while you're solving these various puzzles, or how to avoid enemy encounters in general. For example. one cave has an unbeatable enemy that will appear on each floor up until the final one, where you can finally attack it. So each floor up until then can have two challenges: getting everything and running to the next floor before the guy spawns, or (falling that little time trial) figuring out how to avoid the enemy. The tension that you got above ground with the time limit is replaced with the tension of really powerful enemies just lurking about, ready to wreck you if you make one wrong move while getting treasure. It's a tonal shift that I really liked, and is something that I wished came back in Pikmin 3 as a challenge mode. With three captains, you could make those areas ridiculously more complex and terrifying to navigate.

I'm just happy Pikmin 4 is sure to come. ^^ Most likely thanks to Miyamoto's personal love for it. Pikmin 3 was awesome, and I bet Pikmin 4 on the NX will look gorgeous.

Can't wait.

Sun Jul 03 16 03:13pm
Rating: 3 (Updated 1 time)

Pikmin 3 is a masterpiece, no doubt about it. Star Fox requires people to learn a new way to play, and it is a lot of fun once you do learn it. People just want to jump in, beat the game, and move on to the next. Star Fox 0 is not a game for this generation. It's a game with modern technology, but old sensibilities.

I feel like the concept for Starfox Zero would have worked about better for a different franchise, like a new one. I actually do enjoy parts of Starfox Zero, like the gyrowing.

What I would have liked from a Starfox game, and I think many others, too, is a more traditional controlled game. My personal favorite control scheme for Starfox was Starfox Adventures. Say what you will about that game, but they nailed the arwing controls. Then namco made a Starfox game for the same system and couldn't figure out how to make the controls. They could have still utilized the gamepad for co-op play. True co-op; not two players controlling one character, but each as different characters with their own screen. Seems like the logical choice to me, anyway.

Maybe the controls, the game feels very similar to Star Fox 64.

Star Fox Adventures is as much of a Star Fox game as Hyrule Warriors is a Zelda one. Also no, since there wasn't anything but the final boss to shoot at. Namco's Star Fox felt like a ripoff, it didn't felt neither good to shoot, nor was the pace was as suited for repeated playthroughs.

Also the co-op idea I suppose would have had to keep the visuals they got, in order to render to different views at the same time. I don't think they'll have put online since they're still not committed to doing that.

I'm talking about the arwing controls in Starfox Adventures. Not the arwing levels.
Control Stick - Steer
A Button - Shoot Laser
B Button - Bomb
Y Button - Boost
X Button - Brake
L/R Buttons - Analog Tilt / Click to Roll
Perfect controls.

They work. Are understandable. I just think, if Zero's didn't work, I'll like if they could keep the precision of the targeting in a another way. The issue is mainly that the second analog stick will not bring that precision in the heat of the moment.

Also no, since there wasn't anything but the final boss to shoot at.

DUDESEAN is right though.
The Arwing Controls and levels were awesome, you just couldn't replay them.
The game had it's shark jumps and a couple of sour notes, but it still was a good-great game regardless. The movement and combat system was pretty sweet. Sidestepping, the rolling, the targeting, at it's time, it provided a more fuller Zelda Experience than Zelda(in terms of movement within an environment). Those Fluency/mechanics would work GRAND for an FPS/TPS game(Just add jumping and a few more things). There were Plenty of things to shoot at, just not all in an Arwing.

Pikmin 3 is still a contender for my favorite Wii U game. Excellent design, controls, and presentation. It's one of the better games this gen in general.

Star Fox Zero needed some more time in the lab. Even if the counter-intuitive controls do magically smooth over with insane amounts of (what should be unnecessary) practice to start to enjoy, it's bad game design to thrust the player straight into the deep end of the pool with no idea how to swim.

You have to gradually teach the player - through gameplay, not text - how to get a handle on all of these new features. Start slow. The game could have benefitted from a prologue chapter with this as it's focus, as opposed to just dumping us right away into the Corneria mission.

No one wants to sit in a training room that ultimately doesn't help you with the actually difficult elements of the controls - and for potentially hours at that. People find that boring and tedious. We want to play the actual game, and we want that experience to be intuitive. A training room shouldn't even be necessary.

Nintendo used to have the strongest reputation for game design in this regard, and SFZ is such a stark contrast to that reputation that it almost feels like it can't be real.

I was extremely excited about Star Fox Zero, and patiently sat in that training room, suspecting it was going to be a rough start without. Even so, I didn't honestly begin to enjoy the game until I got near to the end.

I found that I was just stubbornly pushing through because I love Star Fox so dearly. I was forcing myself to play it as a loyal fan. Without the franchise power, though? I don't think many people would have put up with it. In fact, upon attempting to replay it to find other paths, I sadly decided not to continue out of pure frustration at some clunky design elements that weren't even really the controls' fault (though they played a part too).

This is shocking considering my literal addiction to playing Star Fox 64 inside-out; getting all the medals, scraping up any new dialogue content possible, seeing all the planets, etc.

Overall, it felt like an otherwise amazing experience was fractured mostly by trying to forcefully cram the controls in with no other option available for players who prefer the traditional approach (and after the initial demo reaction, they were aware it was an issue for people long before the game came out).

The graphics, the locales, the music, the stylistic animation for the characters' faces, the voice acting... all stellar. I'm so happy to have the real Fox back with us. It's just a shame that it was under such messy circumstances. I hope the beloved voice cast isn't discouraged from returning after this...

I want the series to come back and redeem itself, and I'd LOVE a movie or a cartoon, but I fear all that will be shot in the foot if Miyamoto is too proud to accept, and adapt to, the needs of the fans.

Sometimes, even if you believe in something, and even if you have a few followers... if it doesn't work for everybody else, you need to have the humility to correct course, or the ship is going to be lost at sea forever. I do not want that to happen to Star Fox. It deserves a bright, relevant future.

Fingers crossed that we get a Star Fox on the NX that tries to please everyone. I'm already blue in the face holding my breath for Metroid to redeem itself, and after Zero's reception, I fear Star Fox may similarly fade into the distance for a long time again. Sigh.

We want to play the actual game, and we want that experience to be intuitive. A training room shouldn't even be necessary.

Pretty much sums it all up in that one sentence.

Nintendo used to have the strongest reputation for game design in this regard, and SFZ is such a stark contrast to that reputation that it almost feels like it can't be real.

And then the follow up to reinforce it, well said.

We pretty much attribute all the shortfalls in the more recent controller implementation releases to that of them catering to casuals/"All" audiences.
They can't expect one side who has supported them for years to suddenly conform to a different and unforgiving markets "standards".

IF their goal is to unify casuals with real fans, they are going at it the wrong way, and probably don't realize just how incompatible they are with each other in general and on principle.

Pick a few games aimed at casuals, and have your primary focus more aimed at fans, no need to make one for both, cause then Neither will want it. Again, this can be fixed with the use of modes, if they are dead set to just make one release version and catering to both. They might think it's rude or whatever, but it really isn't at all.

As for the rest of your post, I address/found the meaning you seek as to why it was such a mess in a top post on the next page; Attributed to a 'misread signal'. The review portion was also very insightful.

Hopefully at this point, we can now move on from the mess that was SF0.
(Probably heading towards a new mess, known as Federation Force. . .)

Only thing kids are into the most is CoD at best. I personally enjoy both these titles when I have time to sit down.

I had Star Fox Zero and liked it. I only played solo. I brought it over to my friends house and watched him and his 10 y/o play. They absolutely had a blast. It's really much better as a co-op experience and I think that's what they were shooting for. Then again, I didn't truly put too much time into it. I got decent but not great. After I sold it, I looked up some videos online of people playing it who were good at it and I was blown away. The problem is it wasn't compelling enough for me to want to devote that much time to it to improve. I just can't stand the haters claiming it's the controls fault. All they need to do is practice but today's gamer is lazy. I may not have been great like the videos I watched but I was good enough to enjoy it. I hear people playing it for 20 minutes and giving up. It's sad

Wholeheartedly agree with Miyamoto's last statement.

It's complicated since if anything game designers have leaned on leveling systems or skinner box rewards to keep the player invested.

I wonder if there's an statistic of how many people replay the same game. Since from what I remembered the vast majority don't even finish some games.

pikmin 3 was really such a huge step down from pikmin 2 that i honestly couldn't enjoy it at all

Having not played Pikmin 2, I don't get it, since this one seems like a prettier version of Pikmin 1. Limited set of dates. Ship parts to collect and the eventual boss battles.

If anything I just keep on wondering where c-stick controls were placed in the Wii re-releases, since that's something Pkmin 3 opted to take out.

While I did enjoy Pikmin 3, I do agree that it was a step down from Pikmin 2. Especially when you consider how long it was in for development, and it still ended up a weaker experience.

Miyamoto did something amazing to Star Fox Zero, and that is: re-establish it's universe. It had the perfect tone. It was cheesy like the N64 game that I loved as a child, but it was completely self-aware. The voice acting didn't feel like a bunch of teenagers reading a script, but more like muppets being heroes in space. It didn't take itself too seriously, and that was great. The controls... well, that's a different story.

But in general, I'm glad they stopped turning star fox into this sort of convoluted soap opera. It was getting too dramatic for my taste.

I'm on the opposite note, recycling a script felt wrong. The teleporters I think could also have explained in-universe why there was a reboot. If anything Guard and the Peppy level added another layer to each character. On contrast the execution of Kat felt weird since it didn't connect like in 64 with the relation she has with Falco.
I think the only thing that bothers me of the controls since the introduction is how regardless if it had been better received they'll have changed the controls, since it was too late to justify the gamepad in anyway. In the end I alternated in the TV between each screen, I got used to the camera angles and if anything I got more open to the idea of games giving gyro aiming as an option since it's a way to aim faster either by itself or in conjunction with the second analog stick.

I'm not talking about the script. I'm talking about the tone. I agree with you entirely on the story aspect, but I did enjoy the characters a lot more than I did in Assault. Because they were focused on a mission, and they were rocking it. They weren't worrying about traitors in the team, or romance. That is my point.

Ah ok. Yes in that case, the story didn't ever get in the way or affected the game's pacing.

That's funny, because it felt to me like in half the missions your team isn't even around. Fox keeps randomly going off on his own path over and over. The story, plot, and tone were so weak in this entry it had me wanting to just go back and replay Assault instead. As over the top it might have been in some areas, at least there was a lot of interaction between the characters, including StarWolf. I'm pretty sure Star Wolf only ever interacts with the entire Star Fox party once in the whole of Zero.



well, that's your opinion, partner. And I respect it!

If only the gameplay was as good. It was amusing as a continuation of the story. But the combat was incredibly weak, and several missions were so dragged out one didn't enjoy as much the few good levels it had. I'll give it this, it has a good final battle.

I think personally Star Fox is a really fun game if you sit down and play it. I think, for example, an elementary school kid who plays it without any preconceived notions, I think it would be really fun for them. I think it’s also really, really fun for siblings to play it together.

First thing he said, he personally thinks. That right there, already shows his bias. Followed up by, "IF your naive/indifferent to motion controls(Ei: have a mindset of a 10-13 year old), you also would have thought it to be fun.
. . .
It was Meant to be a kids game(Even though it has an E10+ rating on it), first and foremost. That's what I meant about re-imagining. See? Get it now? I thought the Puppet show and cartoon short was a huge indicator of that."

I do believe this is the closest we are Ever going to get on an elaboration of why Motion Controls only and admits it was a bad call. So when he puts it THAT way, It actually makes sense. And now we know what SF0's Angle was, and why it failed.

The compound question now is: Does he understand that he CAN'T really Market this Game to children specifically, and that Fans are a Far better audience to cater too?

Personally, I think Pikmin 3 is the most amazing game on Wii U. It’s probably one of my favorite games in the last six or seven years. I think that hardly anyone realizes that the multiplayer bingo battle mode was literally the best new multiplayer mode that has been created since Smash Bros. It is so much fun.

. . .
What little respect I had for this guy, seems to be headed directly out the window at this point. . .

Pikmin is the kind of game that you have to play maybe three times to get the full effect, but you know, people don’t have a lot of time, so they just clear the stage and just move on. Games are becoming more of a consumable product, and it’s getting harder and harder for people to let a game to sink in and enjoy leisurely.

So, people are "forced" to play the same stage over 3 times in order to understand/'appreciate' it? But at the same time, he KNOWS dam well how people playstyles are. This reinforces my Notions that he DOES know stuff, but is completely oblivious or has trouble translating his intentions clearly enough so that others pick up on the actual meaning sometimes.

As for the "getting harder for people to let a game sink in" point he mentions: They didn't seem to have that problem when developing a bunch of the GC games. I guess he wants to Isolate that Replay Value formula. I'll tell him this: Kirby Games have it down more or less(The portable versions at least), and look no further than some of the GC games you made before. Obviously Kart and Multiplayer games have inherent replay value. And I will note Very Importantly, that the controller type used MAKES or BREAKS the accessibility/Replay value for many Games.

Let's take Splatoon as an example: It's Multiplayer, BUT, requires that all participants have access to a feasible controller that ISN'T dependent on gimmicks/has an option for traditional controls(Like for N64 and GC games). Splatoon Has that, so that's a major reason why it works. Now let's take a game like MP10. One person has the Gamepad, the others Have to go out and buy Wii controllers. There is NO Option to use GC controllers for that game(And even if there where, the accessibility of a GC controller & Adaptor is not easily feasible to obtain). It breaks the continuity; kind of like bringing in Baseball bats, Hockey Sticks, Golf Clubs, Croquet Mallets and A Tennis Racket To play a game of Tennis. I'm speaking in general terms of Multiplayer, not certain established genres like Karts or Fighters which everyone involved has their own vested preference type to use, where/if available; I'm talking about Multiplayer games that are more 'casual', like Party games, mini games, or battle type games(YES, there IS a distinct difference from FPS, Fighters, And Kart games when applying the Multiplayer concept).

Also you have to focus on quality and fluency, as well as game mechanics & elements. Double Dash has it down to about 95%. MK8 Adds more features, but removes some of the more important mechanics and some elements that DD had. MK8 Is good to great, but Doesn't have the Fluency and mechanics that DD provided. DD was more competitive, and allowed anyone with enough skill to make it to first Place, whereas MK8, Everything pretty much depends on you collecting and keeping 10 coins, which is one element I have always HATED because it doesn't really make sense. The roads are also way too broad(It's for drifting, but Drifting SHOULDN'T be the main focus). And the game feels like it moves a little slow.

Point I'm getting at, You have what it takes to make replayable games. All you have to do, is find them again in games that were successful and piece them together in a new game. BUT, I know you want to focus on markets, so you make your own bed there with the decisions you DO decide to move with instead.

Pikmin 3 is amazing, StarFox, not so much.

I hope he doesn't change the Pikmin formula to be more "consumable". It's an amazing series as is.

Maybe if they made and released more games

Pikmin 3 is by far the best Pikmin game and if it wasn't for Breath of the Wild, it would also easily be the best Wii U game.

Pikmin 3 was too stressful for me Sad

I think it would be really fun for them. I think it’s also really, really fun for siblings to play it together."

Can confirm.
Especially in the gyrowing stages, of which there needed to be more).

I find myself mostly agreeing with Miyamoto on this one. When I was a kid I had an Atari 2600 and I had a lot of fun with all the games I owned. Then I played my neighbor's NES and his copy of Super Mario Bros. I was blown away by how incredible it was! It was WAY better than my Atari games. Before I played those classic Nintendo games I existed in a video game bubble. Those Atari games were fun because they're all that I knew.

If you put Star Fox Zero into the hand of kids who have never played video games before I'm sure they'd think it's fun. They'd have no experience, a refined sense of taste, nothing that plays properly for them to compare it to - but they'd have fun because wow look at that, a video game!

I hope for Pikmin 4's sake that it isn't an NX Launch game [launch window though, sure]. Otherwise it'll bomb harder than 3 did [which even the fans seemed to not care about once it was actually revealed and beyond].

One thing that bothered me with Pikmin 3, and with games like 3D World and, well, most games these days, is how few bosses there were compared to previous titles.

There were loads of bosses, many you found super randomly, in Pikmin 2. While Pikmin 3 had only a handful. Same with Mario. Galaxy and especially Galaxy 2 (thanks to using all Galaxy bosses as well), had loads of them, while 3D World had, like, 4, if you cound both types of Bowser battles. :s

Games are getting so expensive to make that I fear Boss count and even enemy variety is getting lower and lower.

Please fire him. He's killing his own series. No one try this game. Shouldn't be begging if the game is good.

Do you need a moment to sit down? Neither is Miyamoto begging for anything, nor is he killing his own series. If you look at the comments here, Pikmin 3 is actually very well received, and there's a Pikmin 4 coming. So I wouldn't call that dead at all. If you're talking about Star Fox, then it's a bit of a hyperbole to say Miyamoto killed the series. If anything, the series was already dead and Zero was an attempt to revive it. It... probably didn't succeed, but we'll see

That is uncalled for. He doesn't deserve to be fired. You could well argue that if it were not for him, Nintendo might not still exist, at least not as a video game company. You could even argue that if it weren't for him, and games that he co-created like Mario and Zelda, that the NA game industry might still be fairly dead.

He IS the Walt Disney of gaming, and has given us, and me personally, so many great games and memories. However, while he is a creative genius, he is not infallible. He has always been an artist, and not very into gaming himself. He thinks up neat ideas, and then designs games around those ideas, not the other way around. And for a long time, to his credit, that method to his madness served him, and gamers everywhere, very well. It was that outside the box approach that gave us games like Mario Kart, and SMB, and Zelda, and Pikmin. But, in his old age, he is getting odder, for sure. His eccentricity and wacky ideas, I think it's fair to say, no longer really fit the major franchises he created.

There is an argument to be made, that there comes a time when you need to step aside and let a younger generation take over, as is happening with the newest Zelda, which he has had little to no real involvement in. There has come a point, obviously, where Miyamoto's methods and ideas, are not working the same way they used to. He is the type to get bored with what he considers to be "the same old sh*t", and he always wants to think up new ideas. That is why, in HIS mind, they have to "justify" new entries in franchises like F-Zero, or Star Fox, etc., by coming up with "fresh" ideas for them. Such as his ideas for Star Fox Zero. The problem is, he is a bit out of touch, as he doesn't seem to understand that MOST fans of those franchises, WANT, not literally, but to some extent "the same old "sh*t". Meaning we want that fundamental experience that we came to love about that series in the first place. We don't need tacked on control concepts or gameplay gimmicks.

I think it has come to a point, where Miyamoto needs to just work on smaller passion projects, NEW IPs. Just be a mad genius and apply your crazy gameplay concepts to brand new games. The problem has become, that he wants to keep slapping these neat ideas that he has, into Star Fox, or Mario, etc. etc., which can often have a negative effect on those franchises. With Star Fox especially, it deserved a brand new game with a brand new story, but even AS Zero is, it NEEDED, for many fans (like myself) an option to play with normal controls. It isn't simply that we "don't want to try something new". It's that, for many, the mandatory control scheme he envisioned actually kind of ruins the game. And it was so hard for Platinum to implement, that the development of the game suffered.

I LOVE Miyamoto. And he deserves every respect that could possibly be given to a figure in gaming history. He more than any other single individual has shaped and influenced gaming itself, for decades. And if he wants to stick around well into his 80s or 90s, still designing neat little game ideas? Let him. He's earned that. But I DO agree that he should stay away from the major franchises from now. He has obviously grown bored with them, thus he should move on to make fresh IPs that use his ideas in the future.

Wasn't StarFox already dead after Command and 64 3D showing there's little to no interest on this series. I did try this game and liked it, but the best argument I have it's at least better than Assault but not better than 64. Even if the game was good I think the issue is the franchise having little to offer in it's classic form.

If he wanted either game to be received better, then he should have made sure they were MADE better.

I can't 100% speak for Star Fox, because while I have been wanting a new, TRUE sequel to SF64 forever, I decided against buying this specifically because I found it that you would NOT have the option to play it with normal controls. That, on top of the fact that I already disliked that it wasn't a fully new game, with a NEW story and 100% new levels (which I think is just lazy), was a deal breaker.

But I CAN speak for Pikmin 3. I've said this in other threads, but I'll gladly say it again. Pikmin 3 is one of my biggest gaming disappointments ever. Not nearly on the level of actual disgust that "Star Fox": Assault gave me. More like just sad, and let down. It isn't hyperbole to say that I excitedly made sure I got a Wii U at launch, in large part because I wanted Pikmin 3. I was thrilled when it was announced for Wii, and when it was being moved to Wii U, I figured "Why not?"

The game is NOT a "bad" game. But as a PIKMIN game, compared to the first two games, both of which are absolutely brilliant? It's a pale shadow. It's a hollow husk. I have read some people, even on this site when it launched, claim it was the "best Pikmin ever". And while opinions are entirely subjective, at the same time, I'm sorry....but NO, it's not. It physically cannot be.

Why? Because it's missing THE fundamental elements that made Pikmin 1 and 2 so unique and such a joy to play in the first place. The things they removed from this game, made ZERO sense:

1. First and most important, the "c-stick" swarm function. That ONE ability, as far as I'm concerned, makes or breaks the entire Pikmin experience. Meaning with it removed, it simply ISN'T a proper Pikmin experience. Why? Because you're literally removing half the game's control and strategy. Having direct control over your swarm of Pikmin was ESSENTIAL in Pikmin 1 & 2, for avoiding hazards, for properly fighting enemies and bosses without losing a sh*t-ton of Pikmin, for tackling certain obstacles, etc.

And even in Pikmin 3, NOT being able to manually move the swarm is a MASSIVE handicap in those specific things. Boss battles are a chore, and a nightmare. You literally have zero control over whether you lose some Pikmin or not. All you can do in this game, is grab Pikmin, and throw them, and blow your whistle like mad and pray that they don't ALL get killed. It removes a massive amount of the control and strategy from the game. The Pikmin experience is NOT simply "grab a Pikmin, throw it at something". That was only half of the successful equation the first two games employed.

2. Which leads us to the second removal. The ability to zoom the goddamn camera. Not AS essential to the gameplay as manual swarming. But still pretty damn necessary and useful. This game only allows you to spin the camera around with the second analog....which SHOULD have been used for manual swarming in the first place. Being able to spin the camera around is a neat addition, but it wasn't necessary in the first two games, you could just refocus the camera to where you wanted to face it, at any time, ala Zelda. But NOT being able to zoom in and out, or get that top-down view? Miserable.

This forces you into many situations where you simply CANNOT get a proper view or angle on things, which again, sometimes makes the game needlessly difficult. Not as in HARD, but as in "I'm playing a game with half it's functionality removed, so it's not fully playable like a Pikmin game".

3. The least of the issues, but still beyond facepalm worthy. Only ONE save file slot. I found this out the hard way, when I first got the game, got a ways in it, and then a friend came over and I wanted to start a new game to show him the opening, and BOOM, oops, you're forced to rewrite your save file, and start a whole new game, losing ALL your old progress. That is THE dumbest sh*t on the face of God's green earth. Video games, let alone NINTENDO games, all the way back even on the NES with Zelda in the 80s, have had save files, as in MULTIPLE.

I noticed some other recent games, like the remake of Duck Tales, also do this, and it makes ZERO sense. There is ZERO value, there is ZERO advantage to only having one save slot. Even NSMB and Mario 3D World have multiple save slots. So why in the living hell would Pikmin, a game that FAR more needs them, NOT have them? Even trying to conceive why they would make such a dumb choice, is mind-numbing and headache inducing.

I will reiterate, it's not a "BAD" game. If this had been the only Pikmin game they'd ever made, I might even think it was pretty neat. But it's be clear, those three complaints are not simply subjective opinion or a matter of taste. They are essential, fundamental elements of the Pikmin experience, that they removed for no sensible, rational, justifiable reason. What they did was neuter the Pikmin experience.

I can (and did) look beyond the fact that you don't get to play Olimar. I can (and did) look beyond the even crappier fact that you DO NOT collect any treasures, which was another HUGE part of the fun and charm of the first two games. If it had these three elements still in there where they belong, I would have thought it was a LESSER Pikmin game, but still a good one. Hell, I could have even somehow found a way to somewhat get over no zoom and no multiple save files ,even though that would never stop sucking, IF the game at least had the manual swarm maneuvering, it would be far more playable, and enjoyable.

But the fact is, it doesn't. That would be tantamount to, let's say, them deciding to make a new Mario game, but fully removing his ability to RUN. He can still jump, but you can only walk forward, slowly, the entire game. It would still be playable. But it would not FEEL like a Mario game, would it? Mario has two very essential, fundamental elements: running and jumping. Remove either, and it's suddenly not a great Mario experience. And that is exactly what they did to Pikmin 3. They removed your ability to run, so to speak. The game is still playable, but without the ability to swarm, it is suddenly a very awkward, clumsy, and often cumbersome experience.

Sorry to go on a huge rant, but that one still hurts. Pikmin is legit one of my Top 10 games of all time, and in some ways I like Pikmin 2 even more (mainly because no time limit). Again, P3 didn't quite break my heart the way Assault did. But it still did. I was SO hyped for it, and then when I played it, I tried REALLY hard to like it. But you just cannot look past those things. Some people obviously did, and I have no idea how. You can argue that it's a good game till the cows come home, I have no issue with that. But it is NOT a good Pikmin game. I would even go so far as to say it feels like the team that made Pikmin 3 had never even played the first two games, let alone worked on them.

The experience soured me so much, that even though they've (basically) announced a Pikmin 4....I have zero excitement for it. Because I don't trust them to actually bother putting those essential elements BACK in where they belong.In a perfect world, Pikmin 4 would totally make up for 3: it would have Olimar and Louie back, it would have TREASURE hunting back, it would have stick-swarming, camera zoom, and multiple save files back. It would be everything 3 should have been. But I don't believe in my heart that they'll do that, not anymore.

I do wonder if ALL STUFF should be the same. I've just keep hearing people repeat that at nauseaum lately. If anything that's the only thing creators may let fans do because it's like chaining one hand when a thing must be this way in order to survive.




Today's VIP

aleotothepast's avatar
Joined: May 2016

Social Services

Want to join this discussion?

You should like, totally log in or sign up!